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Reply #30 posted 10/23/20 6:44am

kindofblue

Thanx a lot, VaultCurator, for this fantastic post!

And, to the Estate: You gotta wake up and - release it!

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Reply #31 posted 10/23/20 7:18am

jaawwnn

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SquirrelMeat said:

Great post.

A couple of observations -

'It' from SOTT/SOTT SDE is fractionally cropped on the fade, ready for the alarm ring of Starfish. I'm assuming its fractionally longer when originally sequenced on the end of a vinyl side.

'Last Heart' - If you lift the version from CB 98, the beginning of the file actual contains an artifact from 'Days of wild'. It can be self edited to correct it.

In regard to the supposed previous boot versions of 'Dream Factory' and 'Crystal Ball' being sourced from full genuine copies, I'm not convinced.

The most common quality version of 'Dream Factory' seems to be floating around in two versions. On both of these, 'Movie Star' is fantastic quality, but on one, right at the end, you can hear a tiny fraction of 'All My Dreams' coming in. Obviously, there is no known configuration with these songs back to back. The second version of 'Movie Star' on does not have the 'All My Dreams' bleed, but is fractionally shorter, so it could simply have been edited, or taken from a different source.

In regard to the common version of the 'Crystal Ball' album, one thing jars with me - the Rebirth / Play seque. It simply doesn't sound right. It's sloppy. Coupled with the fact that the echo on the word 'ball'at the end of 'Rebirth' is cut fractionally makes me believe the two songs are not from the same source.

I've often wondered about this one as well as well.

"I think people ought to know that we're anti-fascist, we're anti-violence, we're anti-racist and we're pro-creative. We're against ignorance."
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Reply #32 posted 10/23/20 9:07am

VaultCurator

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Hi Squirrel Meat

Thank you for your reply. Just to respond to a couple of points...

Regarding both 'It' and 'Last Heart', you're completely right. Thanks for pointing these out. When 'It' ended a side it simply fades to silence. Since 'It' got moved to the beginning of side 2 on Sign, Starfish & Coffee begins abruptly and clips the fade.

The most common quality version of 'Dream Factory' seems to be floating around in two versions. On both of these, 'Movie Star' is fantastic quality, but on one, right at the end, you can hear a tiny fraction of 'All My Dreams' coming in. Obviously, there is no known configuration with these songs back to back. The second version of 'Movie Star' on does not have the 'All My Dreams' bleed, but is fractionally shorter, so it could simply have been edited, or taken from a different source.

Thanks for this. I can't speak for the sound quality of Movie Star, and I've personally never noticed a tiny bit of 'All My Dreams' at the end of any version? May I ask which version you've heard this on?

I'm not at my home computer right now, but from memory both versions I use as reference (Thunderball and the first issue of Sabotage) ended the same way. After Prince's last line there is a brief sound of Susannah snoring, then 'The Cross' begins. This last bit of snoring was clipped off from the Crystal Ball '98 release. Could you possibly be confusing this short sound with the sound effects in 'All My Dreams' fade in?

Please let me know which versions you're referring to and I will double check for myself.

In regard to the common version of the 'Crystal Ball' album, one thing jars with me - the Rebirth / Play segue. It simply doesn't sound right. It's sloppy. Coupled with the fact that the echo on the word 'ball' at the end of 'Rebirth' is cut fractionally makes me believe the two songs are not from the same source.

You may be right. I have no way of verifying beyond a doubt that this is genuine. However, one thing I would say is that prior to the 2015 leak we never had a clean version of 'The Ball'. In fact we never had a complete version as the beginning was always missing too. With this one release we had a clean and complete version of 'The Ball' that segued seamlessly into 'Joy In Repetition'. A version of 'Joy In Repetition' that doesn't contain the audio error from 'Graffiti Bridge'. We also got what is probably the cleanest version of 'Rebirth of the Flesh' with an EQ curve that matched the SOTT:SD release. If it is a fake then whoever faked it has done an incredible job.

As for the transition between Rebirth and Sunshine? My guess is that Prince made the transition in house between Rebirth, the short CB skit and Play In The Sunshine by taking a scalpel to the 1/2 inch mix downs (the same way he made radio edits). He probably cut through the echo to make a quick transition into Sunshine. I could be completely wrong. Maybe it is a fake. But given how such clean versions of Rebirth, The Ball and Joy all came out an once? I'm more inclined to believe it's genuine than not. Like I say, I don't know for sure.


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Reply #33 posted 10/23/20 10:52am

imprimis

VaultCurator said:


(3) The version of Sexual Suicide included was the alternate mix that also featured on configuration 1 (and like I mentioned above, configuration 1 never leaked)

.

I believe quite strongly that the version on CB'98 is a brightened-up form of the final mix-- from 1986, and the version that featured on any nascent Dream Factory configurations.

.

The version commonly circulating on bootlegs for so long, is nothing more than an unfinished work-in-progress from late 1985, not a true "alternate or early mix" proper.

.

If the WIP version appeared in sequence on anything at all, it most likely would have been a tape of songs under consideration for Parade, most of which requiring additional refinement, and serving only as a reference or something for the A&R people.

.

[Edited 10/23/20 11:02am]

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Reply #34 posted 10/23/20 11:21am

imprimis

AvocadosMax said:

Good Love from CB98 is NOT the same as on Bright Lights soundtrack

Bright Lights isn't as loud (which is good hehe) and is longer and doesn't end with the weird voice talking about the cab driver and space or whatever...

.

The ending portion (ambient New York traffic, with a Yiddish-accented speaker, captured sometime during the 1970s), is sourced from the Sound Ideas stock library, which Sunset Studios kept on hand (from the same collection used in 'Delirious', 'Lady Cab Driver', 'Pop Life', etc), and which also suggests that a version incorporating this portion (perhaps the completed, unedited 6-min+ version) was created back in 1987 or earlier.

.

Speculation:

.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that this 'edited' version may the one that was considered for some stage of Camille, which segues into IIWYGF (with its similar Yiddish-accented street recording, 'Look at the bargains over here, ladies', also from the Sound Ideas library, although this was purportedly added much later on; perhaps the orchestral warm-up part of the intro is one of the new additions for SOTT), or a version that had temporary placement on an edited-down 2LP sequence of CB before the final SOTT tracklist was reached (beginning side 3, before UGTL was recorded/added). GL on CB'98, and IIWYGF on SOTT:SDE started from ~0:06+ segue plausibly into each other (not perfectly, but maybe suggestive of some holdover from an earlier sequencing).

.

[Edited 10/23/20 11:56am]

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Reply #35 posted 10/24/20 6:24am

VaultCurator

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imprimis said:

The ending portion (ambient New York traffic, with a Yiddish-accented speaker, captured sometime during the 1970s), is sourced from the Sound Ideas stock library, which Sunset Studios kept on hand (from the same collection used in 'Delirious', 'Lady Cab Driver', 'Pop Life', etc), and which also suggests that a version incorporating this portion (perhaps the completed, unedited 6-min+ version) was created back in 1987 or earlier.

.

Speculation:

.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that this 'edited' version may the one that was considered for some stage of Camille, which segues into IIWYGF (with its similar Yiddish-accented street recording, 'Look at the bargains over here, ladies', also from the Sound Ideas library, although this was purportedly added much later on; perhaps the orchestral warm-up part of the intro is one of the new additions for SOTT), or a version that had temporary placement on an edited-down 2LP sequence of CB before the final SOTT tracklist was reached (beginning side 3, before UGTL was recorded/added). GL on CB'98, and IIWYGF on SOTT:SDE started from ~0:06+ segue plausibly into each other (not perfectly, but maybe suggestive of some holdover from an earlier sequencing).

.

[Edited 10/23/20 11:56am]

This is very interesting. I guess there is a good chance that the street noise outro and IIWYGF's intro on Sign are related. If so they may have been conjoined in some fashion on Camille, possibly even some configuration of Sign. There was about three weeks between Crystal Ball being configured and U Got The Look being recorded so it's certainly possible.

Reading this, I've only just discovered what was being said at the beginning of Girlfriend. "Look at the bargains over here, ladies". His accent was so strong I figured he was speaking another language.

Really interesting that he says "Look at the bargains over here" before the wedding march and a song about Susannah Melvoin. I'm guessing this is an 'Old Friends 4 Sale' type of reference.

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Reply #36 posted 10/24/20 7:00am

databank

avatar

imprimis said:

VaultCurator said:


(3) The version of Sexual Suicide included was the alternate mix that also featured on configuration 1 (and like I mentioned above, configuration 1 never leaked)

.

I believe quite strongly that the version on CB'98 is a brightened-up form of the final mix-- from 1986, and the version that featured on any nascent Dream Factory configurations.

.

The version commonly circulating on bootlegs for so long, is nothing more than an unfinished work-in-progress from late 1985, not a true "alternate or early mix" proper.

.

If the WIP version appeared in sequence on anything at all, it most likely would have been a tape of songs under consideration for Parade, most of which requiring additional refinement, and serving only as a reference or something for the A&R people.

.

[Edited 10/23/20 11:02am]

According to Princevault (whose infos are usually -not always but usually- properly sourced), the version of SS on DF was indeed the one from the bootleg. I suspect the one on CB was either the WIP one, or more liekely even a new mix from 1997, but of course there's no way of knowing for sure.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #37 posted 10/24/20 7:04am

databank

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imprimis said:

AvocadosMax said:

Good Love from CB98 is NOT the same as on Bright Lights soundtrack

Bright Lights isn't as loud (which is good hehe) and is longer and doesn't end with the weird voice talking about the cab driver and space or whatever...

.

The ending portion (ambient New York traffic, with a Yiddish-accented speaker, captured sometime during the 1970s), is sourced from the Sound Ideas stock library, which Sunset Studios kept on hand (from the same collection used in 'Delirious', 'Lady Cab Driver', 'Pop Life', etc), and which also suggests that a version incorporating this portion (perhaps the completed, unedited 6-min+ version) was created back in 1987 or earlier.

.

Speculation:

.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that this 'edited' version may the one that was considered for some stage of Camille, which segues into IIWYGF (with its similar Yiddish-accented street recording, 'Look at the bargains over here, ladies', also from the Sound Ideas library, although this was purportedly added much later on; perhaps the orchestral warm-up part of the intro is one of the new additions for SOTT), or a version that had temporary placement on an edited-down 2LP sequence of CB before the final SOTT tracklist was reached (beginning side 3, before UGTL was recorded/added). GL on CB'98, and IIWYGF on SOTT:SDE started from ~0:06+ segue plausibly into each other (not perfectly, but maybe suggestive of some holdover from an earlier sequencing).

.

[Edited 10/23/20 11:56am]

This is indeed extremely interesting, thanks.

It's possible that Prince got hold of a copy of that sound library and kept using it, but in light of this new information, it would also make sense to assume that this edit is indeed a genuine edit from 1986, outro included.

Neversin would prabably be able to tell us if the version on Camille was the one from BLBC or the one from CB98 (or yet another mix/edit).

In the meantime, it's impossible to know for sure sad

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #38 posted 10/24/20 7:19am

VaultCurator

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databank said:

Neversin would prabably be able to tell us if the version on Camille was the one from BLBC or the one from CB98 (or yet another mix/edit).


Hi Databank.

Are you in touch with him at all? I've seen him post things around but I've never spoken to him personally. I'm sure he gets people asking him questions all the time so I wouldn't want to bother the guy.

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Reply #39 posted 10/24/20 7:33am

databank

avatar

VaultCurator said:



databank said:


Neversin would prabably be able to tell us if the version on Camille was the one from BLBC or the one from CB98 (or yet another mix/edit).





Hi Databank.

Are you in touch with him at all? I've seen him post things around but I've never spoken to him personally. I'm sure he gets people asking him questions all the time so I wouldn't want to bother the guy.


I can orgnote him as much as you or anyone. But I suspect he'll read this anyway and that's why I'd rather let him decide to take part in the discussion or not wink
A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #40 posted 10/24/20 8:03am

VaultCurator

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databank said:

I can orgnote him as much as you or anyone. But I suspect he'll read this anyway and that's why I'd rather let him decide to take part in the discussion or not wink


That's fair enough. wink

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Reply #41 posted 10/24/20 8:22am

lurker316

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databank said:

According to Princevault (whose infos are usually -not always but usually- properly sourced), the version of SS on DF was indeed the one from the bootleg. I suspect the one on CB was either the WIP one, or more liekely even a new mix from 1997, but of course there's no way of knowing for sure.


What is WIP?



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Reply #42 posted 10/24/20 8:27am

VaultCurator

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lurker316 said:
What is WIP?


Work in progress wink

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Reply #43 posted 10/24/20 8:32am

databank

avatar

VaultCurator said:

databank said:

I can orgnote him as much as you or anyone. But I suspect he'll read this anyway and that's why I'd rather let him decide to take part in the discussion or not wink


That's fair enough. wink

BTW my sources say that no DF3 that has leaked is genuine and that all are reconstructions. There's one in circulation among traders that appears to be genuine, though it may simply be a better fake, it's hard to tell.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #44 posted 10/24/20 8:35am

imprimis

The bootleg 'Sexual Suicide' seems to have a scratch vocal, lacks full mixing, lots of unpleasantly leaky Warehouse acoustics, and is just altogether quite rough; the CB'98 version has that playful 'Data Bank' adlibbing style towards the close, what appears to be both Susannah and Prince's added background vocals during the bridge, and some added keyboards that are a combination of DX7 and Fairlight patches/samples, all of which suggest a 1986 provenance, even if this particular version never appeared on any test configuration for a future album at the time. The CB'98 release could very well be essentially the 'finished version' from back in the day, slightly brightened up ~1996 but likely with no new overdubs or radical changes to the mix. I would be hard-pressed to envision a 1996/1997 era Prince capable of convincingly revisiting these nuances of his older palette. If the DF version resembles the circulating bootleg, surely it has been better mixed than the outtake we are currently relying on, unless it served as little more than a placeholder for a more polished version or a superior song.

.

[Edited 10/24/20 9:33am]

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Reply #45 posted 10/24/20 8:46am

imprimis

I wouldn't necessarily go as far as saying that the remix/edit of 'Good Love' was the very version that appeared on a test Camille tape or acetate, but it nevertheless appears to have been commissioned (or at least derived from something put together) back in 1986.

.

I believe the PrinceVault world is adamant that the Camille test configuration contains literally what showed up on the BLBC OST. That may be true, but it doesn't address the possible existence of alternate versions being toyed with during this vintage period. It may be an edit taken from a more refined, longer version than what we currently have in our hands. It could also have been considered for a SOTT B-side, EP, CB/Camille single; or for prospective use on a proto-Black Album.

.

As my earlier post prattled on in saying, I have a wild theory that UGTL may have replaced 'Good Love' at some point during the transition from a 3LP CB to 2LP SOTT, and that GL was slightly reworked when it still was on the release candidate tracklist in that brief window of time, perhaps even before CB was to be condensed.

.

There is nothing recorded after 1986 (early 1987, if you want to be hypertechnical) that seems to utilize those ['Authentic Sound Effects', 'World Series of Sound', & Sound Ideas^TM] sound libraries of which we are currently aware. Sunset Sound famously maintained a large catalogue of dozens of these on vinyl.

.

[Edited 10/24/20 9:45am]

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Reply #46 posted 10/24/20 8:57am

imprimis

These various configurations of Dream Factory are little more than quarter- and half-serious homework assignments to keep Susan Rogers occupied during downtime. And to fulfill an obligation to the WB corporate handlers and overseers to show the current state of their investment in the Prince brand. As databank stated in an earlier thread, if Dream Factory, or whatever title it might have received in the end, had been released, the final product would almost certainly be much closer to an album with the character of SOTT.

.

[Edited 10/24/20 9:39am]

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Reply #47 posted 10/24/20 9:21am

databank

avatar

Hopefully, in 6 months Duane's book will provide answers to all our questions about SS And GL. I can't imagine this not being addressed.
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Reply #48 posted 10/24/20 2:26pm

VaultCurator

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imprimis said:

Speculation:

.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that this 'edited' version may the one that was considered for some stage of Camille, which segues into IIWYGF (with its similar Yiddish-accented street recording, 'Look at the bargains over here, ladies', also from the Sound Ideas library, although this was purportedly added much later on; perhaps the orchestral warm-up part of the intro is one of the new additions for SOTT), or a version that had temporary placement on an edited-down 2LP sequence of CB before the final SOTT tracklist was reached (beginning side 3, before UGTL was recorded/added). GL on CB'98, and IIWYGF on SOTT:SDE started from ~0:06+ segue plausibly into each other (not perfectly, but maybe suggestive of some holdover from an earlier sequencing).

.

[Edited 10/23/20 11:56am]

Actually imprimis, I have another theory about the IIWYGF intro. Take a look at the box for side 3’s master tape.

OYLfmML.jpg

This was previously side 4 of Crystal Ball. As you can see, Prince stuck a label over ‘Joy In Repetition’ when he switched it for Girlfriend, however he didn’t stick a label over ‘The Ball’. It wasn’t until he added ‘U Got The Look’ that he crossed it out.

If Prince originally intended on leaving ‘The Ball’ at the start of this side, this would have caused a problem since Girlfriend doesn’t fade in like Joy is supposed to… but the intro that he added did. I reckon the orchestra intro was supposed to fade in over the chatting party segment at the end of ‘The Ball’


.

[Edited 10/24/20 14:26pm]

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Reply #49 posted 10/24/20 2:31pm

VaultCurator

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databank said:

VaultCurator said:


That's fair enough. wink

BTW my sources say that no DF3 that has leaked is genuine and that all are reconstructions. There's one in circulation among traders that appears to be genuine, though it may simply be a better fake, it's hard to tell.


Hi Databank.

Do you have any more information on DF3? If they are reconstructions do you know if they are they accurate to the source? I’d appreciate any details you have.

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Reply #50 posted 10/24/20 4:05pm

imprimis

I'd say there's a label over track 2 simply due to there being no space to write to the side of it. The crossed-out length of track one does not match any known version of 'The Ball'.

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Reply #51 posted 10/25/20 12:52am

bfunk

Pretty sure that the Estate has A master and a Safety of Rebirth Of The Flesh:

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Reply #52 posted 10/25/20 6:13am

udo

avatar

Great work!

This means that the statement about being able to assemble your own tracklis for DF, Camille and CB is false.

It can even be considered an error.

(apart from the other issues mentioned..)

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill... If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
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Reply #53 posted 10/25/20 8:18pm

bluegangsta

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VaultCurator said:

Power Fantastic - Different version features on Dream Factory
Although it doesn't explicitly say on Prince Vault, it is implied that 'Power Fantastic' on DF (June) included the bands warm up intro. Logic also dictates the vocal track Prince used was the finished version as found on Hits / B sides. This is easy enough to reconstruct at home, however streamers will have to choose between the edit from Hits (which will skip the intro), or use the first take on SOTT:SD which will include Prince's band instruction prior to song starting, and the wrong vocal track.

Unfortunatly the mix of Power Fantastic isn't the original. While you could attach the SDE intro to the b-sides version, the placement, reverb (or lack of) and compression of instruments is significantly different.

Great thread though! With AI mastering, you could probably stitch together a consistant sounding replication of a lot of these configurations. I might even give it a go...

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #54 posted 10/25/20 9:41pm

AvocadosMax

i present to y'all.... the best album Prince never released... too bad I wasn't alive back then and didn't know him, otherwise i would have tried my best to convince him to release this and in this sequence...

Dream Factory

1. A Place In Heaven [W&L Organs Mix] this is what i call Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A if you reverse it..

2. Dream Factory with the classic Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A/'Welcome to Holly Rock' intro... hehe see what I did? already an awesome transition

3. Can I Play With U? (Feauturing Miles Davis)

4. Teacher, Teacher '85

5. Strange Relationship '85

6. Old Friends 4 Sale i know, i know.... TECHNICALLY its more of a Parade era track... but idc he didn't include it on Parade, so use your imagination and fantasize an alternate universe where he included it on the last Revolution album....

7. Wonderful Day W&L version but not the 12" length...

8. It Ain't Over Till The Fat Lady Sings

9. Sexual Suicide

10. Crystal Ball featuring Claire Fiscer orchesta and also the 'Purple Underground' sequence.... if you don't have it....find it yourself...ask for a friend

11. Power Fantastic stitched the SOTT SDE intro with The Hits/B-Sides version.... sounds good enough to my ears... if i were listening to that for the first time i wouldn't have known its stitched from two sources... maybe one day we'll get the real thing, but for now this sounds damn-near perfect

12. In A Large Room With No Light

13. Colors

14. And That Says What?

15. Train

16. Witness 4 The Prosecution (Version 1)

17. MovieStarr

18. A Place In Heaven (Lisa Vocal)

19. All My Dreams

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Reply #55 posted 10/25/20 10:37pm

databank

avatar

VaultCurator said:



databank said:




VaultCurator said:




That's fair enough. wink



BTW my sources say that no DF3 that has leaked is genuine and that all are reconstructions. There's one in circulation among traders that appears to be genuine, though it may simply be a better fake, it's hard to tell.




Hi Databank.

Do you have any more information on DF3? If they are reconstructions do you know if they are they accurate to the source? I’d appreciate any details you have.


I'm not quite sure I understand your question. The supposedly genuine DF3 is what it says on Pvault. I think, but I'm not sure, you'd have to check the page's history, that as with CB86 there was a mismatch in the songs' order, later corrected, which would support this version's authenticity. Regardless this DF3 has nothing extraordinary to it, it's just a good sounding version of the known config. There's no version on it that's different than circulating boots, it just sounds better.
A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #56 posted 10/27/20 9:29am

JorisE73

databank said:

VaultCurator said:


Hi Databank.

Are you in touch with him at all? I've seen him post things around but I've never spoken to him personally. I'm sure he gets people asking him questions all the time so I wouldn't want to bother the guy.

I can orgnote him as much as you or anyone. But I suspect he'll read this anyway and that's why I'd rather let him decide to take part in the discussion or not wink


Man, I really think he left here. I sent him some orgnotes after his 'signing off' post and none have been read by him (they're still showing with fat type in my sent orgnotes.)
I know he's hanging out somewhere we simple fans don;t have acces to sad

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Reply #57 posted 10/29/20 6:46pm

SquirrelMeat

avatar

VaultCurator said:

imprimis said:

Speculation:

.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that this 'edited' version may the one that was considered for some stage of Camille, which segues into IIWYGF (with its similar Yiddish-accented street recording, 'Look at the bargains over here, ladies', also from the Sound Ideas library, although this was purportedly added much later on; perhaps the orchestral warm-up part of the intro is one of the new additions for SOTT), or a version that had temporary placement on an edited-down 2LP sequence of CB before the final SOTT tracklist was reached (beginning side 3, before UGTL was recorded/added). GL on CB'98, and IIWYGF on SOTT:SDE started from ~0:06+ segue plausibly into each other (not perfectly, but maybe suggestive of some holdover from an earlier sequencing).

.

[Edited 10/23/20 11:56am]

Actually imprimis, I have another theory about the IIWYGF intro. Take a look at the box for side 3’s master tape.

OYLfmML.jpg

This was previously side 4 of Crystal Ball. As you can see, Prince stuck a label over ‘Joy In Repetition’ when he switched it for Girlfriend, however he didn’t stick a label over ‘The Ball’. It wasn’t until he added ‘U Got The Look’ that he crossed it out.

If Prince originally intended on leaving ‘The Ball’ at the start of this side, this would have caused a problem since Girlfriend doesn’t fade in like Joy is supposed to… but the intro that he added did. I reckon the orchestra intro was supposed to fade in over the chatting party segment at the end of ‘The Ball’


.

[Edited 10/24/20 14:26pm]

Track one title may not have been 'The Ball', but the original 'U Got the Look' title, 'The Look'. That would also make sense as the covered over timing also looks like it starts with a '3'.

.
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