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Thread started 10/21/20 5:09pm

VaultCurator

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Sequencing Dream Factory, Camille & Crystal Ball *Updated*

Hi everyone.

Back in July I posted a thread discussing whether or not it was possible to sequence the preliminary SOTT sequences on streaming services (as was suggested by Michael Howe in an interview with SuperDeluxeEdition.com). I also covered whether or not is was possible to re-configure these track lists yourself at home from what's been officially released on CD.

Original thread: https://prince.org/msg/7/...g_10405584
Michael Howe's interview: https://www.superdeluxeed...onus-cuts/

At the time I was making a lot of assumptions as to what we would be getting on SOTT:SD. Since then we now have more information. The set has been released, there were some useful linernotes in the book, many interviews have been conducted, and PrinceVault.com has also been updated with new details.

After a brief chat with Lurker316 (who had a few questions about this topic) I've decided to update the thread with this new one. (Unfortunately the previous thread auto locked.)


What do we really know about the original sequences?

Before I get to the tracks, I just wanted to note some details regarding these preliminary sequences and what I'm basing my analysis on.

1) Dream Factory (Late April 1986 configuration) - Never leaked
I think I can say without fear of contradiction, this configuration has never seen the light of day (at least amongst the wider fan base, I can't speak for private collectors). There are two songs (the original 'Big Tall Wall' and 'And That Say's What?') which were exclusive to this sequence and never circulated prior to the release of SOTT:SD. As such all I have to go by is the track list on PrinceVault.com. We currently have no way of knowing for sure if any of the songs were edited or segued in any particular way, so whether or not we can sequence this version accurately will be down to guess work.

2) Dream Factory (3rd June 1986 configuration) - Partially leaked... I think
To my knowledge, this sequence has never leaked in it's entirety. Having said that, I have my suspicions (yes, I admit, this is speculation on my part) that some tracks that circulated prior to SOTT:SD originated from a cassette of this sequence.

If we take a look at the classic bootleg album 'Crucial' which I believe was first published around 1989, we can see that the tracks that make up this collection likely came from multiple tapes / sources, since they were not intended for a single project.

Power Fantastic (Intro)
Power Fantastic
Crucial - Eric Leeds WIP version. Not intended for any type release
Last Heart
Sexual Suicide
Girl O' My Dreams / Can't Stop This Feeling I Got / We Can Funk - Not intended for an album
In a Large Room With No Light
Witness 4 The Prosecution
Can I Play With U? - Collaboration with no intention of release set in stone
Crucial - Again, Eric Leeds WIP version. Not intended for any type release
And finally a Miles Davis track

If we take a look at just the Dream Factory tracks (Power Fantastic, Last Heart, Sexual Suicide, In A Large Room With No Light, Witness 4 The Prosecution - none of which were released at the time) there is some circumstantial evidence to suggest they originated from the June configuration of Dream Factory...

(1) All five of these tracks feature on the June configuration
(2) Two tracks were exclusive to this configuration (Power Fantastic and In a Large Room With No Light)
(3) The version of Sexual Suicide included was the alternate mix that also featured on configuration 1 (and like I mentioned above, configuration 1 never leaked)
(4) Regarding Power Fantastic, according to Prince Vault "The instrumental intro to the song was removed when the track was placed on The Hits / The B-Sides in 1993." implying that the intro was intended for inclusion on Dream Factory. The version presented on this bootleg included both the finished vocal mix from ‘The Hits’ and the full intro, presented how I believe it was intended for this sequence.
(5) Not proof by any means, but I find it interesting how the first drum beat was cut off from 'In A Large Room With No Lights'. Was this because the track segued from ' Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A' in some form and the transition was too tight for a clean start?
None of this is definitive proof that the DF tracks on this bootleg were taken from a the June configuration tape, but like I say, it's a hunch.

3) Dream Factory (18th July 1986 configuration) - Leaked (to the best of our knowledge)
If the legends are to be believed, the original Dream Factory bootleg (that ended up getting pressed in 2001) was sourced from a band member's stolen test cassette. This would explain why a number of the tracks appear in an 'album edit' form and some songs segue into each other. If anyone has any evidence that contradicts the story then I'm all ears, but for now I'll work on the assumption that the Dream Factory bootleg accurately represent the July configuration.

4) The Camille Album (5th November 1986) - Never leaked
Like the first configuration of Dream Factory, we do this next one in the dark. Since test pressings of this album are known to exist, it's safe to assume that a small hand full of private collectors have heard this album, unfortunately it's also safe to assume that this record has never been leaked to the wider fan base. We know this since the opening track 'Rebirth of the Flesh' had only circulated as it appeared on Crystal Ball. As mentioned in my previous post, some intel on the test pressing did slip into the public domain and apparently multiple tracks differ slightly from there released counterparts, although unfortunately I don't know any specifics.

NB: I know some fans are under the impression that a recording of this test pressing is in circulation, however for their benefit I’d like to point out that the bootleg labelled 'Camille [Test Pressing]' from 2016 is a fake. If you take a look at the wave you can see a sharp difference in the level of background noise between the end of IIWYGF (complete silence) and the beginning of 'Rockhard' (faint noise). The background noise at the start of Rockhard is also present on the black album. It might be some reverb fading out from the end of '2 Nigs'. I’m not sure. It’s there all the same.

5) Crystal Ball (30th November 1986) - Leaked
In 2015 Crystal Ball leaked into the public domain in its entirety from a set of mastered cassettes.


The Tracks

Visions - Version on streaming services contains an error
Off to a flying start. Strictly speaking there are no other edits or mixes of 'Visions', having said that there is an error with the version that appears on SOTT:SD.

The first note of this piano piece lasts for 4 seconds, however the first 2 seconds of the piece are missing. Half the of first note has been cut off.

All is not lost however, as Visions was also released in its entirety as 'Minneapolis #1' on special editions of Wendy & Lisa's Erocia album. As it stands 'Minneapolis #1' isn't available on streaming services (at least not on the two I checked) but if you can get hold of the CD it's still possible to add this to your sequence at home.

One other minor detail, if you listen closely to the end of either Visions on SOTT:SD and Minneapolis #1 you'll hear a voice in the background (likely Prince) saying "Excellent. Stop. Stop.". This cannot be heard on the Dream Factory test cassette as the final note fades out before he speaks. If you are sequencing Dream Factory at home the best option is to use 'Minneapolis #1' and fade the last note out yourself.

Dream Factory intro - Formally referred to as 'Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A' - Not released
Well, now I'm really confused. So the segue that we've been referring to as 'Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A' for years is no longer the canon 'Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A'? This is going to cause problems later on.

Regardless of what this piece is called, it's still unreleased. We can speculate as to whether or not this intro appeared on the April or June Dream Factory sequences, however we do know for certain that it was on July. This piece is not available outside of the bootleg market.

Dream Factory - Different edit
Something that isn't actually noted on PrinceVault is that the version from the July test cassette appears to be edited. The released version of Dream Factory (from Crystal Ball '98) is 30 seconds longer. Should you want to recreate the LP accurately it's probably possible to re-edit the track yourself, although streamers will have to settle for this longer version.

Wonderful Day - Different version
According to Prince Vault, the version of Wonderful Day used on Dream Factory is the cut featuring Wendy & Lisa's vocals that has been circulating on bootlegs for years. Why the estate chose to release Prince's solo version, I have no idea? To me, the solo version doesn't even sound finished. The opening verse is 6 lines long instead of 8, implying that the first two lines are missing and were always intended for Wendy and Lisa.

It's possible to get something close to the album version of 'Wonderful Day' by re-editing the 12" mix, but even then some of the vocal parts are mixed differently so you still can't get an exact match.

Train - Match
No problems here as far as I'm aware. The versions on Dream Factory and SOTT:SD appear to match.

The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker & It - Match
Both appear to match the versions from Sign O' The Times

Big Tall Wall & And That Says What? - Unsure
Since we do not have anything to reference against, we have no way of knowing for certain if the versions included on SOTT:SD were mixed or edited differently for the album. Until we know otherwise, I'll assume these version are accurate as they're the best we have to go by.

Strange Relationship (feat. Wendy & Lisa) - Different edit
Presented on SOTT:SD in full, this track was edited down to fit on the Dream Factory LP. Again, if you're aiming for accuracy it's probably possible to re-edit this track for yourself, but streamers will have to stick to the uncut version.

Teacher, Teacher & Slow Love - Match
Both Appear to match the version from SOTT:SD

Starfish And Coffee - Slightly different edit
Almost an exact match as the album version, minus the bell sound effect. An easy edit at home, a minor inaccuracy for streamers.

Colors & In A Large Room With No Light - Match
No problems here as far as I'm aware. The versions on Dream Factory and SOTT:SD appear to match.

Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A - Unsure
OK, here's where I'm really confused. If we are to take this at face value, 'Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A' appears on the June configuration before 'Sexual Suicide', but did Prince really consider putting a 3 minute backwards track in the middle of his album?

He's put backwards messages on albums in the past (Darling Nikki & Baby I'm A Star), but a whole song, and not at the end of the side?

Did Prince only intend on using a portion of the track as a segue? Or is this in fact supposed to be the piece used as the intro for Dream Factory that incorporates 'Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A'? We don't know for certain, but I'm very sceptical.

Sexual Suicide - Different version
According to Prince Vault, the version used on Dream Factory is a slightly different mix to the one found on Crystal Ball '98. There is a different version circulating on bootlegs which (if I'm not mistaken) has an alternate vocal. I'm guessing this is the Dream Factory version, unfortunately the quality of the bootleg is pretty bad. As such, the best option we have is the released version.

I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man - Different version features on Dream Factory
Includes one extra breakdown on Dream Factory. The version on Crystal Ball and Sign O' The Times has been edited and is 20 seconds shorter.

This means you'll have to either settle for the shorter version or resort to using an inferior quality bootleg.

Sign O’ The Times - Different version features on Dream Factory
According to Prince Vault, the version of Sign O' The Times used on Dream Factory is the same as the 7" edit. What it doesn't mention is that the 7" edit fades out, whereas on Dream Factory it doesn't. Instead it segues into Crystal Ball. It's possible to edit the album version to replicate this, but streamers will need to choose between the longer LP version, or the edit with fade.

Crystal Ball - Different version features on Dream Factory
The version on Crystal Ball '98 appears to be the edit that was intended for the Crystal Ball album.

However, from what we know the version intended for Dream Factory was very different, both in how it was edited and mixed. Since the Dream Factory version didn't include strings, the intro is significantly shorter. In addition, the earlier version features more backing vocals from Susannah Melvoin, a longer drum solo and the infamous "Brothers and sisters of the purple underground" segment.

Power Fantastic - Different version features on Dream Factory
Although it doesn't explicitly say on Prince Vault, it is implied that 'Power Fantastic' on DF (June) included the bands warm up intro. Logic also dictates the vocal track Prince used was the finished version as found on Hits / B sides. This is easy enough to reconstruct at home, however streamers will have to choose between the edit from Hits (which will skip the intro), or use the first take on SOTT:SD which will include Prince's band instruction prior to song starting, and the wrong vocal track.

Last Heart - Match
Appears to match the version on Crystal Ball '98

Witness 4 The Prosecution - Match apart from segue
Appears to match the version on SOTT:SD, however the ending is supposed to segue into Movie Star. This detail will be lost on streaming services.

Movie Star - Different edit and segue
There appear to be a couple of problems with using the released version Movie Star.

1) The intro has 'Jam of the Year' dubbed over it (a track recorded almost a decade after DF).
2) The released version seems to be slightly edited, by about 10 seconds.
3) Just a minor issue, but the outro is also clipped by a tiny amount.

This means you'll have to either settle for the shorter version or resort to using an inferior quality bootleg.

A Place In Heaven - Match apart from segue
Like with Witness, this appears to match the version on SOTT:SD, however the June configuration is supposed to segue from Movie Star. This detail will be lost on streaming services.

The Cross & All My Dreams - Match
Appears to match the versions on SOTT:SD.

Rebirth Of The Flesh - Different edits and broken ending
What... the hell... happened here! I can say with confidence that this version doesn't match any of the intended versions for either LP. The ending is broken beyond belief. As I'm sure we all know by now, this track cross fades from two different sources (which sound completely different) and the result is terrible.

The version that appears on the Crystal Ball LP was edited down. Some of these edits can be recreated to an extent, although the word 'real' is dubbed a couple of times over one of the cuts and can't be replicated from the released version alone. It sounds as if this released version originally included the Crystal Ball ending before it begins fading into the dodgy sounding alternate source. As a result, the ending that is required for Crystal Ball is missing, as is the "Welcome to the Crystal Ball" segue.

As far as the Camille album goes, we do not know to what extend Prince edited down Rebirth of the Flesh, if at all. We're also unsure if it was supposed to segue into Housequake (although I presume it was meant to).

Play In The Sunshine - Different intro on Crystal Ball
Has a different intro on Crystal Ball and segues from Rebirth Of The Flesh.

Housequake - Unsure (Camille version only)
Matches what appears on Crystal Ball, however it is unknown if this version differs on Camille. It may or may not segue from 'Rebirth of the Flesh'.

Strange Relationship (feat. Camille vocal) - Match
The SOTT album version matches the version on Crystal Ball and presumably matches the Camille album version.

Feel U Up – Long version not available on streaming services
According to the running time on Prince Vault, it is presumed that the 12" version of Feel U Up was intended for the Camille album. This isn't available on streaming services but can be sound on some editions of the Partyman CD single.

Hot Thing - Match
Appears to match the version on SOTT

If I Was Your Girlfriend - Slightly different edit
A minor detail, but prior to SOTT, this track omits the ‘street vendor/Wedding March’ intro. It is possible to edit this out, however a tiny bit of echo may still be noticeable at the start of the song.
It may be possible to splice the intro from the single edit in order to get a clean start?

Rockhard In A Funky Place - Out of print
Not available on streaming services.

The Ball - Match apart from segue
Matches the version on Crystal Ball, however as the segue fades out there is no way of joining it to 'Joy In Repetition' without resorting to a bootleg.

Joy In Repetition - Match apart from segue & audio glitch
Is available on Graffiti Bridge, however it suffers from the same segue issue as detailed in 'The Ball'. There is also a poor edit / audio glitch that appears in the released version which isn't present on Crystal Ball's master.

Shockadelica - Match
The Crystal Ball version matches the 12" version on SOTT:SD. Presumably this is the same on Camille.

Good Love - Match
The Crystal Ball version matches the version on the Bright Lights Big City soundtrack (which is available on the streaming services I checked). It's presumably the same on the Camille album.

Forever In My Life, The Cross, It’s Gonna Be A Beautiful Night, Adore - Match
All versions on Crystal Ball match those on Sign O' The Times.


Album overview

DREAM FACTORY (version 1 : April 1986)

Side 1:
Visions - Version on streaming services contains an error
Dream Factory - possible different edit, unknown if this includes the missing intro
Wonderful Day - different mix
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)
Big Tall Wall (SOTT:SD)
And That Says What? (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
Strange Relationship - different edit
Teacher, Teacher (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee - slightly different edit
A Place In Heaven (SOTT:SD) - unknown which vocal
Sexual Suicide - different mix


DREAM FACTORY (version 2 : June 1986)

Side 1:
Visions - Version on streaming services contains an error
Dream Factory - possible different edit, unknown if this includes the missing intro
Wonderful Day - different mix
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)
It (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
Strange Relationship - different edit
Teacher, Teacher (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee - slightly different edit
Colors (SOTT:SD)
In A Large Room With No Light (SOTT:SD)
Nevaeh Ni Ecalp A - unknown how this is utilised
Sexual Suicide - different mix

Side 3:
Crystal Ball - different mix
Power Fantastic - different versions / edit

Side 4:
Last Heart (Crystal Ball ‘98)
Witness 4 The Prosecution - match apart from segue
Movie Star - different edit and segue
A Place In Heaven - match apart from segue
All My Dreams (SOTT:SD)


DREAM FACTORY (version 3 : July 1986)

Side 1:
Visions - Version on streaming services contains an error
Dream Factory - different edit plus intro is missing
Train (SOTT:SD)
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)
It (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
Strange Relationship - different edit
Slow Love (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee - slightly different edit
Colors (SOTT:SD)
I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man - different edit

Side 3:
Sign O' The Times - different edit
Crystal Ball - different mix
A Place In Heaven (SOTT:SD)

Side 4:
Last Heart (Crystal Ball ‘98)
Witness 4 The Prosecution - match apart from segue
Movie Star - different edit and segue
The Cross (SOTT:SD)
All My Dreams (SOTT:SD)

In summary, for all version of Dream Factory it is possible to make a playlist on streaming services which includes every song, although there will be variations in which versions / edits can be used, plus segues will be lost or disjointed.

If you choose to create your own sequences on CD (and can make your own album edits) you'll be able to get closer, however you wouldn't be able to make an exact match without resorting to some bootlegged material.


CAMILLE

Side 1:
Rebirth Of The Flesh - Version on streaming services contains an error
Housequake (SOTT:SD) - Segue unkown
Strange Relationship (SOTT:SD)
Feel U Up - full version not available on streaming services

Side 2:
Shockadelica (SOTT:SD)
Good Love (Bright Lights Big City OST)
If I Was Your Girlfriend - Slightly different edit
Rockhard In A Funky Place - not available on streaming services

In summary, this album can not be sequenced on streaming services. It’s possible to sequence an album on CD in close approximation to Camille (although I would recommend re-editing ROTF's ending).


CRYSTAL BALL

Side 1:
Rebirth Of The Flesh - different edit
Play In The Sunshine - different intro
Housequake (SOTT:SD)
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
It (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee (SOTT:SD)
Slow Love (SOTT:SD)
Hot Thing (SOTT:SD)

Side 3:
Crystal Ball (Crystal Ball ‘98)
If I Was Your Girlfriend - slightly different edit
Rockhard In A Funky Place - Not available on streaming services

Side 4:
The Ball - missing segue
Joy In Repetition - segue plus audio glitch
Strange Relationship (SOTT:SD)
I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man (SOTT:SD)

Side 5:
Shockadelica (SOTT:SD)
Good Love (Bright Lights Big City OST)
Forever In My Life (SOTT:SD)
Sign O' The Times (SOTT:SD)

Side 6:
The Cross (SOTT:SD)
It's Gonna Be A Beautiful Night (SOTT:SD)
Adore (Until The End Of Time) (SOTT:SD)

In summary, it’s possible to sequence Crystal Ball on CD (although you will require the bootleg to fix the segues). This cannot be achieved on streaming services.

[Edited 10/21/20 17:11pm]

[Edited 10/21/20 17:19pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 10/21/20 6:42pm

LoveGalore

I actually involuntarily ejaculated by the end of this legendary post. Exceptional work, as always, VC. You live up to your moniker.
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Reply #2 posted 10/21/20 6:51pm

AvocadosMax

Good Love from CB98 is NOT the same as on Bright Lights soundtrack

Bright Lights isn't as loud (which is good hehe) and is longer and doesn't end with the weird voice talking about the cab driver and space or whatever...

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 10/21/20 6:52pm

sexton

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This is extremely informative, thank you!

I still say if the June '86 version of Dream Factory were ever released, it would be one of my top five favorite Prince albums, above Sign 'O' the Times.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 10/21/20 6:53pm

AvocadosMax

its possible but with a hell of a lot of editing...

maybe one day...

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 10/21/20 6:53pm

slyjackson

Overwhelming information, but very interesting and neccesary. Thanks.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 10/21/20 7:25pm

LoveGalore

AvocadosMax said:

Good Love from CB98 is NOT the same as on Bright Lights soundtrack



Bright Lights isn't as loud (which is good hehe) and is longer and doesn't end with the weird voice talking about the cab driver and space or whatever...



Indeed. GL on the OST is 5:12. CB98 is 4:55. And LOUD!
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 10/22/20 7:03am

LoveGalore

Further on GL: the edit is entirely different. The OST is longer but it also includes a lot of different stuff in the GL pt 2 section.

Obviously for the fans of GL out there, there's one long 6 minute version hiding in the vault and both existing versions showcase different sections.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 10/22/20 9:44am

lurker316

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Thanks. I really appreciated your initial post on this topic. This update is even more helpful.


[Edited 10/22/20 11:31am]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 10/22/20 9:55am

paisleypark4

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LoveGalore said:

Further on GL: the edit is entirely different. The OST is longer but it also includes a lot of different stuff in the GL pt 2 section.

Obviously for the fans of GL out there, there's one long 6 minute version hiding in the vault and both existing versions showcase different sections.



This is my favorite Prince song of all time. Good to know there is even a longer version in the vault. Would be cool to have the instrumental or even acapella. I would take a whole Maxi Single EP of this track.
Download all the shit hop that you can for your kids, neices, nephews, and their friends also. That will prevent them from going out and buying it and will prevent some shit hop sales. Every little bit helps - Andy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemus
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 10/22/20 10:15am

nayroo2002

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Thanks for all your great research, V.Curator biggrin

My only question is:

How in the fük could a legit 'Camille' test pressing be out in the public and the estate not know what versions of those songs to release?

"Whatever skin Ur in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #11 posted 10/22/20 11:24am

bwaaatch

Second post said it all. Amazing work. Thanks so much!

Sad they coudn't get these LPs sorted for a Record Store Day release, as we all hoped. Any ideas on out best route to make our views felt on that mater? And yes, nameless-org-super-pedants, I know I could look up a lot of people's email addresses … but anyone know who actually listen, or woudl be most receptive to this plea?

I mean, VC has done their homework for them, so no excuses!

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 10/22/20 12:21pm

databank

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Great post, thanks clapping

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #13 posted 10/22/20 12:30pm

ufoclub

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Sexual Suicide - Different version
According to Prince Vault, the version used on Dream Factory is a slightly different mix to the one found on Crystal Ball '98.


There's quite a bit different about the instrumentation. I do wish we also had the original mix of this song in clarity.

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Reply #14 posted 10/22/20 4:13pm

VaultCurator

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Hi everyone.

Thank you all so much for the kind words. One thing I forgot to do in my original post was thank JorisE73 who was kind enough to supply me with some info while I was preparing this post. Cheers bud.

LoveGalore said:
Further on GL: the edit is entirely different. The OST is longer but it also includes a lot of different stuff in the GL pt 2 section.

Obviously for the fans of GL out there, there's one long 6 minute version hiding in the vault and both existing versions showcase different sections.

Really? I assumed that all the material included in the edit featured in the OST version? I’m going to have to check this out. Cheers for this tip LG. Maybe this 6 minute version was included on the Camille LP?

nayroo2002 said:
How in the fük could a legit 'Camille' test pressing be out in the public and the estate not know what versions of those songs to release?

Hi Nayroo,

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining that the estate chose to release the most complete versions of songs over LP edits (such as they did with the original Strange Relationship). I wish they'd go further and unearth some of the unedited versions of songs that actually ended up on albums too.

I'd rather be in a situation where I had to edit a song down myself to restructure an album, than have the edit ready made and miss out on the complete track. As much as I complain about the end of ‘Rebirth of the Flesh’ I was gobsmacked to hear the missing ‘Hell you could be my wife’ section. In that regard I will treasure this version despite it’s flaws.

That's not to say there aren't things to complain about. How they messed up the beginning of Visions leaves me baffled, and I don’t understand why they chose to use Prince’s solo version of Wonderful Day, and the same for Eggplant for that matter.

What worries me about some of the tracks that were released on SOTT:SD (sub par sounding ones) is that, if these were the best versions available, what's happened to the master tapes? Are they damaged? Have they degraded too much? Are they lost / stolen?

Did you know that a handful of songs on this set were sourced from MP3s?
Can I Play With U?, Strange Relationship (Original), A Place In Heaven (Lisa's Vocal), Train, It Be Like That Sometimes & Rebirth Of The Flesh. All of these were sourced from MP3s, not master tapes. God knows where these MP3s came from. It's possible that in some cases we're getting the best sounding versions from private collectors who are working in co-operation with the estate.

In theory, Rebirth Of The Flesh should feature (in some form or another) on 3 separate master tapes. The song's original 2 inch master tape, the Camille album's stereo master tape, and the Crystal Ball master tape. If the estate theoretically had 3 options to choose from... why use an MP3?!?

Judging from the labels on the boxes of the SOTT master, it's possible that these tapes may have been re-used. If this is true, do the masters for abandoned albums like Camille even exist any more?

I wish the estate would answer some of these questions.

bwaaatch said:
Sad they coudn't get these LPs sorted for a Record Store Day release, as we all hoped. Any ideas on out best route to make our views felt on that mater? And yes, nameless-org-super-pedants, I know I could look up a lot of people's email addresses … but anyone know who actually listen, or would be most receptive to this plea?

Hi Bwaaatch.

As much as I would love to own an official Camille and / or Dream Factory (I think we owe it to Prince to add these amazing records to his discography), there may be some issues preventing this.

As far as Dream Factory is concerned, we don’t actually know for certain if Prince ever had any of these early sequences properly mastered. From what I have heard, he went about creating Dream Factory in house on cassettes. Mastering is expensive and takes time. If development on DF was ongoing he may never have reached a point where needed a master copy.

Camille was mastered on 5th November 1986 to create the test pressings that we have seen photos of, however given that the estate have released Rebirth of the Flesh from an MP3, I’m worried as to the condition of the Camille master tape.

If the master tapes no longer exist for these LPs then the estate would have no choice but to re-construct these albums from whatever material is still available. I can appreciate why they’d be reluctant to do so.

Having said that, if there is a chance that master tapes do exist, or if there is any other way of getting these albums released accurately and officially, we could always start an online petition? If it gets enough traction someone at the Prince estate will hopefully see it.

ufoclub said:
There's quite a bit different about the instrumentation. I do wish we also had the original mix of this song in clarity.

Hi ufoclub.

I’ve just had another listen to the bootleg (I haven’t thrown it on in ages), and you are completely right. I’m hearing quite a few variations in the arrangement. I’m also 100% certain that the vocal is a completely different take.

Sexton said:
This is extremely informative, thank you!
I still say if the June '86 version of Dream Factory were ever released, it would be one of my top five favorite Prince albums, above Sign 'O' the Times.

I completely agree actually. For me it’s a near perfect Prince album. In my head, the June configuration is Dream Factory, whereas July is an early version of Sign O’ The Times. Does that make sense?

The June version sounds more distinguished with songs like In A Large Room With No Light, Power Fantastic & Sexual Suicide. It actually compliments Sign O’ The Times really well, in the same way Lovesexy accompanied Black Album. June Dream Factory is the lighter, brighter Sign O’ The Times.



My rendition of the Dream Factory album art



Susannah Melvoin’s original sketch

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Reply #15 posted 10/22/20 4:23pm

BoraBora



If it can be of any interest, the old "Crystal Ball" BMA bootleg CD (from 1990) seems to contain Side 3 and Side 4 (barring "All My Dreams") of the DF June configuration (taken from a tape).

Apart from the sequence, no differences in versions with the July final configuration.

"A Place In Heaven" is the Lisa version and is not mixed with the ending speech of "Moviestar".




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Reply #16 posted 10/22/20 4:35pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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Thank U VaultCurator 4 the extensive information

#ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://prince.org/msg/7/464433 9.24.2020
if you ever try the lotus position
Try it while you're being strangled
Do U understand what I'm saying?
#IDEFINEME
It’s unloving and selfish to be easily offended
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Reply #17 posted 10/22/20 4:43pm

BoraBora

VaultCurator said:


DREAM FACTORY (version 1 : April 1986)

Side 1:
Visions - Version on streaming services contains an error
Dream Factory - possible different edit, unknown if this includes the missing intro
Wonderful Day - different mix
The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (SOTT:SD)
Big Tall Wall (SOTT:SD)
And That Says What? (SOTT:SD)

Side 2:
Strange Relationship - different edit
Teacher, Teacher (SOTT:SD)
Starfish And Coffee - slightly different edit
A Place In Heaven (SOTT:SD) - unknown which vocal
Sexual Suicide - different mix



Just to debate, I wonder if the DF April configuration could be with less vocal contribution by Wendy & Lisa, including the P original takes of "Wonderful Day" and "A Place In Heaven".

It's only for my listening pleasure and obviously not for historical sake, but this is the tentative tracklist I made on my MP3:

1) Visions (W&L Eroica)

2) Dream Factory (CB98)

3) Wonderful Day Prince Version (SOTT Deluxe)

4) The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (Horns) (SOTT Deluxe)

5) Big Tall Wall (Version 1) (SOTT Deluxe)

6) And That Says What? (SOTT Deluxe)

---

7) Strange Relationship (SOTT Deluxe)

8) Teacher Teacher (SOTT Deluxe)

9) Starfish And Coffee (SOTT Deluxe)

9) A Place In Heaven Prince Version (SOTT Deluxe)

10) Sexual Suicide (CB98)

All in all it sounds really good and the lenght of each side is compatible with the canonic lenght of general LP sides.

Anyway I would like to know what versions really are on that April configuration.


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Reply #18 posted 10/22/20 4:46pm

VaultCurator

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BoraBora said:


If it can be of any interest, the old "Crystal Ball" BMA bootleg CD (from 1990) seems to contain Side 3 and Side 4 (barring "All My Dreams") of the DF June configuration (taken from a tape).

Apart from the sequence, no differences in versions with the July final configuration.

"A Place In Heaven" is the Lisa version and is not mixed with the ending speech of "Moviestar".



OMFG! I have that bootleg! I don't mean on my computer. I mean I have the CD!

I've just dug it out of my collection and you are completely right. It is a huge chunk of the June album, almost half. The tape speed is wrong and it's clearly been copied a few times... but it's genuine.

To confirm (and to my surprise) Moviestar and A Place In Heaven (Lisa's vocal) do not overlap.

Thank you so much for this Bora. This helps build a more complete picture. biggrin

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Reply #19 posted 10/22/20 4:49pm

BoraBora

VaultCurator said:


ufoclub said:
There's quite a bit different about the instrumentation. I do wish we also had the original mix of this song in clarity.

Hi ufoclub.

I’ve just had another listen to the bootleg (I haven’t thrown it on in ages), and you are completely right. I’m hearing quite a few variations in the arrangement. I’m also 100% certain that the vocal is a completely different take.



Moonraker's "Fantasia", right?!?


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Reply #20 posted 10/22/20 4:50pm

LoveGalore

I thought someone had posted a bit of a debunk on the MP3 sourcing topic.
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Reply #21 posted 10/22/20 5:05pm

VaultCurator

avatar

BoraBora said:

Moonraker's "Fantasia", right?!?


Actually I was listening to Crucial (Beech Martin). Does it sound any better on Fantasia? I'll check it out. Thanks. wink

LoveGalore said:

I thought someone had posted a bit of a debunk on the MP3 sourcing topic.


Really? I purchased the 24bit flacs and there is a definite cut off around 16khz on many of these tracks. Unless I’m reading these spectrals wrong, or there is some other explanation (cleaning tools maybe?) then I take back what I said. But they certainly look as if they are lossy sourced to me. If you can find a link I’d be interested in reading more into it.

.

[Edited 10/22/20 17:06pm]

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Reply #22 posted 10/22/20 5:14pm

BoraBora

VaultCurator said:

BoraBora said:

Moonraker's "Fantasia", right?!?


Actually I was listening to Crucial (Beech Martin). Does it sound any better on Fantasia? I'll check it out. Thanks. wink



No sorry, my fault in reading you previous post.

You were talkin' of "Sexual Suicide" and from what I know I agree with you that the more polished version available is included in the CD you mention.

I was talking of "Dream Factory", being the "Fantasia" version different from the "Crystal Ball 98" released version.


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Reply #23 posted 10/22/20 5:22pm

LoveGalore

VaultCurator said:



BoraBora said:


Moonraker's "Fantasia", right?!?





Actually I was listening to Crucial (Beech Martin). Does it sound any better on Fantasia? I'll check it out. Thanks. wink




LoveGalore said:


I thought someone had posted a bit of a debunk on the MP3 sourcing topic.



Really? I purchased the 24bit flacs and there is a definite cut off around 16khz on many of these tracks. Unless I’m reading these spectrals wrong, or there is some other explanation (cleaning tools maybe?) then I take back what I said. But they certainly look as if they are lossy sourced to me. If you can find a link I’d be interested in reading more into it.

.

[Edited 10/22/20 17:06pm]



I wish I had kept track of the comment I saw. But I may also not be interpeting it correctly. The print out for results said something to the effect of "[this track] 94% likely sourced from CDDA" - but maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm reading. LOL
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Reply #24 posted 10/22/20 5:42pm

VaultCurator

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LoveGalore said:

I wish I had kept track of the comment I saw. But I may also not be interpeting it correctly. The print out for results said something to the effect of "[this track] 94% likely sourced from CDDA" - but maybe I don't know what the fuck I'm reading. LOL


Hi Love Galore

I think I’ve found the thread

https://prince.org/msg/7/464494?&pg=2

According to olb99’s auCDtect results there were a few questionable files…
- 04-04-Prince-Can_I_Play_With_U_feat_Miles_Davis-SMR.flac.wav ("This track looks like MPEG with probability 95%")
- 04-07-Prince-Visions-SMR.flac.wav ("This track looks like CDDA with probability 94%" -> why only 94%?)
- 04-14-Prince-Colors-SMR.flac.wav ("This track looks like CDDA with probability 92%" -> why only 92%?)
- 05-14-Prince-It_Be_s_Like_That_Sometimes-SMR.flac.wav ("This track looks like CDDA with probability 92%" -> why only 92%?)

I may have an explanation why some of the tracks that appear to be lossy sourced on the spectral passed the auCDtect test.

According to Leaped7689…
“A few of the vault tracks were seemingly sent to Bernie Grundman as lossy files, not lossless, then were mastered/remastered from those files. I've checked out 3 or 4 sources of the set, "Train", "Can I Play With U?", "Visions", "Colors", "A Place In Heaven (Lisa Vocal Version)" and "Strange Relationship (so-called Original Version...)" were lossy files with light mastering over the compressed area (about 16kHz and up)... Might be forgetting a track or 2.”

It could be that the mastering over the compressed area threw the test off.

I’m not an expert by any means, but a small handful of tracks do look lossy sourced to me. I’m happy to be proved wrong and will certainly retract the claim if that turns out to be the case.

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Reply #25 posted 10/22/20 7:18pm

wildsign

I agree that the June configuration of Dream Factory is a fantastic album, and it really is a tragedy it wasn’t released at the time as the 4th and final Prince and the Revolution album.

In a perfect world, this would have been released and then a follow up Prince solo album called “Sign o the Times “ or “Camille” which might have looked like this:

Side 1
Rebirth of the flesh
Play in the sunshine
Housequake
Hot thing

Side 2
U got the look
If I was your girlfriend
Slow love
I could never take the place of your man

Side 3
Shockadelica
Good love
Forever in my life
Sign o the times

Side 4
The cross
It’s gonna be a beautiful night
Adore
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Reply #26 posted 10/22/20 7:19pm

jfenster

Too much info....why didn't they release rebirth with the segue into the ball?
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Reply #27 posted 10/23/20 1:07am

olb99

avatar

Thanks, VaultCurator! This is a fantastic post.

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Reply #28 posted 10/23/20 3:29am

glamlife2

Major kudos to you for putting all of this information in one place! Count me as an orger with an obsession for these various test configurations and creating fantasy albums from them. Luckily I'm a sound editor so I'm able to take all the best sources and create something listenable! i.e. without horribly jarring sound level changes, etc.

I still hold out hope that the Estate will at some point try to put out the June config of Dream Factory, the Camille LP and the full Crystal Ball as Record Store Day or other limited releases. It would be tragic if some of the masters are really lost for some of the tracks! (I'd love the April '86 DF config to get a release as well - would be so cool to know what exact versions/edits were actually used!)

What an era. So much brilliant music created in one year!

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Reply #29 posted 10/23/20 6:25am

SquirrelMeat

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Great post.

A couple of observations -

'It' from SOTT/SOTT SDE is fractionally cropped on the fade, ready for the alarm ring of Starfish. I'm assuming its fractionally longer when originally sequenced on the end of a vinyl side.

'Last Heart' - If you lift the version from CB 98, the beginning of the file actual contains an artifact from 'Days of wild'. It can be self edited to correct it.

In regard to the supposed previous boot versions of 'Dream Factory' and 'Crystal Ball' being sourced from full genuine copies, I'm not convinced.

The most common quality version of 'Dream Factory' seems to be floating around in two versions. On both of these, 'Movie Star' is fantastic quality, but on one, right at the end, you can hear a tiny fraction of 'All My Dreams' coming in. Obviously, there is no known configuration with these songs back to back. The second version of 'Movie Star' on does not have the 'All My Dreams' bleed, but is fractionally shorter, so it could simply have been edited, or taken from a different source.

In regard to the common version of the 'Crystal Ball' album, one thing jars with me - the Rebirth / Play seque. It simply doesn't sound right. It's sloppy. Coupled with the fact that the echo on the word 'ball'at the end of 'Rebirth' is cut fractionally makes me believe the two songs are not from the same source.

.
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