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Reply #30 posted 07/05/20 1:28pm

herb4

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Moonbeam said:

Regarding the discussion of Prince being a pop artist, he certainly was.


He was but he was more than that though.

Some famous musician or critic once referred to him as "the world's most popular underground artist" , which I've found an apt decription, and it's really REALLY hard for me to think of him in such exclusive, narrow and limiting terms as "pop artist".

He was funk artist, a disco artist, avant garde, punk, new wave, psyechadelic, R&B, jazz...blues. I don't find it all possible to view him thru such a singular lens. Some of his later stuff, as has been pointed out, was more "pop" oriented (D&P, Batman, Musicology) and aimed at scoring cash but to me, by and large, and for the most part the only way you can see him as strictly a "pop" artist is because some of his stuff managed to become popular.

1999, Parade, Controversy, Dirty Mind, SoTT, The Black Album, ATWIAD and Lovesexy, which were all recorded during his so called commercial and artistic "peak" aren't pop albums AT ALL, so GTFO with that shitty idea. A lot of his singles choices weren't aimed at the top 40 either, and many people here have even called those selections and choices into question, suggesting he'd have moved more records with different song promotions. The popular sound merely caught up to him.

His own label even famously struggled with the material he was offering and wondered htf to sell it.

If being popular makes you a pop artist, then I guess Pearl Jam and Nirvana were pop artists. Or the Beastie Boys. Or REM or U2. Springsteen. NWA. Sorry, no. Not buying it (no pun inintended).

MJ and Madonna were pop artists. INXS after a bit. Bon Jovi. Janet Jackson. Lionel Ritchie. Brian Adams. Also more manufactured shit like Backstreet Boys, New Kids on the Block, Kenny Loggins and Richard Marx or later Genesis. Some of the late 80's and early 90's hip hop shit like Vanilla Ice, Tone Loc and MC Hammer.

When I think of "pop", I think of music like Paula Abdul, not Prince. Stuff tailor made to be in commercials that's safe and unchallenging. That was NOT Prince.

Narrowly defiining Prince's stuff in this way is like calling Stevie Wonder (overall) a "pop artist" (he wasn't) or Parlaiment "pop" (they were not)

Prince's most POP oriented albums:

D&P
Batman
Musicology
PR (arguabley)
Obviously The Hits/B SIdes

and that's really about it to my mind.

Purple Rain was so good it would have been a popular hit no matter when it was released or recorded.


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Reply #31 posted 07/05/20 1:40pm

SantanaMaitrey
a

Don't forget Motown! They proved that you can have pop artists while still having very sophisticated music by first class musicians!
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Reply #32 posted 07/05/20 2:26pm

herb4

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SantanaMaitreya said:

Don't forget Motown! They proved that you can have pop artists while still having very sophisticated music by first class musicians!

Also true.

But they were under the management and somewhat iron fist of Berry Gordy, designed to make hits and sell records, so to me it's a little different from what Prince ultimately became. Back then, dealing with Gordy's machinery was sort of like being a boxer and needing Don King to get fights. Also, remember that Stevie LEFT Motown specifically because he wanted free from the restraints of merely being a pop artist and prduced some of his most seminal work. Much like Prince in many ways.

I wouldn't classify Prince nor Stevie as "pop" artists beyond the narrow definition of "they sold many records" and happened to become popular. In fact, I view them both as above it and both of them changed what the definition of pop really was.

Stevie was on fucking FIRE in the 70's but doing what he wanted - making trends and not following them - much like Prince in the 80's. SO MUCH of pop/R&P sounded like Prince in the 80's becuse he SET the trends. "Supersticion" was NOT pop. But it is NOW.

I always tend to view "pop" in terms of how well it makes for a Coca Cola ad or a toothpaste commerical, and that hardly describes what I heard coming from Prince growing up in my teens and early 20's. Quite the opposite really. I wasn't hearing anything else like what he was giving me and most pop music seemed to be chasing HIM for a good long while.


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Reply #33 posted 07/05/20 2:28pm

herb4

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BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

Of note is that the OP was talking about critical acclaim and legacy only, never even addressing sales. But for some really sad reason, everyone brings it back to the mundane matter of sales, as if sales has anything to do with great art, and vice versa. I don't think Bill Laswell fans ever address the matter of sales when discussing his records, just sayin'.

.

Prince is a pop artist.


In what sense? By nature of scoring hits or his overall sound and general approach to songs?

Genuinely curious in what you have to say for once.

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Reply #34 posted 07/05/20 5:00pm

Moonbeam

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herb4 said:

Moonbeam said:

Regarding the discussion of Prince being a pop artist, he certainly was.


He was but he was more than that though.

Some famous musician or critic once referred to him as "the world's most popular underground artist" , which I've found an apt decription, and it's really REALLY hard for me to think of him in such exclusive, narrow and limiting terms as "pop artist".

He was funk artist, a disco artist, avant garde, punk, new wave, psyechadelic, R&B, jazz...blues. I don't find it all possible to view him thru such a singular lens. Some of his later stuff, as has been pointed out, was more "pop" oriented (D&P, Batman, Musicology) and aimed at scoring cash but to me, by and large, and for the most part the only way you can see him as strictly a "pop" artist is because some of his stuff managed to become popular.

1999, Parade, Controversy, Dirty Mind, SoTT, The Black Album, ATWIAD and Lovesexy, which were all recorded during his so called commercial and artistic "peak" aren't pop albums AT ALL, so GTFO with that shitty idea. A lot of his singles choices weren't aimed at the top 40 either, and many people here have even called those selections and choices into question, suggesting he'd have moved more records with different song promotions. The popular sound merely caught up to him.

His own label even famously struggled with the material he was offering and wondered htf to sell it.

If being popular makes you a pop artist, then I guess Pearl Jam and Nirvana were pop artists. Or the Beastie Boys. Or REM or U2. Springsteen. NWA. Sorry, no. Not buying it (no pun inintended).

MJ and Madonna were pop artists. INXS after a bit. Bon Jovi. Janet Jackson. Lionel Ritchie. Brian Adams. Also more manufactured shit like Backstreet Boys, New Kids on the Block, Kenny Loggins and Richard Marx or later Genesis. Some of the late 80's and early 90's hip hop shit like Vanilla Ice, Tone Loc and MC Hammer.

When I think of "pop", I think of music like Paula Abdul, not Prince. Stuff tailor made to be in commercials that's safe and unchallenging. That was NOT Prince.

Narrowly defiining Prince's stuff in this way is like calling Stevie Wonder (overall) a "pop artist" (he wasn't) or Parlaiment "pop" (they were not)

Prince's most POP oriented albums:

D&P
Batman
Musicology
PR (arguabley)
Obviously The Hits/B SIdes

and that's really about it to my mind.

Purple Rain was so good it would have been a popular hit no matter when it was released or recorded.



I don't want to derail the topic, but I felt I should respond to this. I agree that Prince was more than a pop artist. I think databank's last post sums up my feelings quite well.

My post was merely a rebuttal to those who would scoff at the notion that he was a pop artist. I guess I view "pop" as a broader term than many others, and I don't view it derisively at all. Those artists you mentioned all had moments where they could be considered pop artists, particularly U2 (I'd say around 1984-1991), Bruce Springsteen (especially Born in the USA), and R.E.M. (late 80s and early 90s). Nirvana changed the musical landscape, but I think part of it is because their music was also hooky as hell. I guess I think there's a distinction between being a "pop artist" (making music with intentional mainstream appeal and doing the associated pop promotion) and making "pop music". As such, I absolutely agree that these artists (including Prince) are a different type of artist to someone like Paula Abdul, or even Michael Jackson.

I still contend that Prince did make many overtures to the mainstream crowd, including on some of the albums you say are not pop at all. The media around 1999 Deluxe, including interviews with band members such as Dez, makes it clear that he certainly was courting a more mainstream audience with 1999, for instance. I'd call it a synth funk album more than anything else, and I even downvoted a "pop" genre tag for it at RateYourMusic, but I wouldn't scoff at the notion of it being considered a pop album. It certainly sounds inspired by a lot of contemporaneous synthpop and new wave.

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Reply #35 posted 07/13/20 3:15am

slyjackson

I reckon it would have been a great album, weird and quirky. Housequake would have been the first single then Strange Relationship, IIWYG, Shockadelica and Good Love the last single.

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Reply #36 posted 07/13/20 4:48am

databank

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slyjackson said:

I reckon it would have been a great album, weird and quirky. Housequake would have been the first single then Strange Relationship, IIWYG, Shockadelica and Good Love the last single.


Shockadelica was planned as the first single. Nothing is known about further singles.
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Reply #37 posted 07/13/20 10:17am

Dazza

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LoveGalore said:

Camille is what people want the Black Album to be - quirky, funky, weird, sexy, alluring. It succeeds in all the ways Black Album horribly fails.


I’ll never understand why he didn’t put crystal ball and rebirth of the flesh on the Black Album instead of 2 nigs and dead on it. It would have been killer
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Reply #38 posted 07/13/20 11:21am

databank

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Dazza said:

LoveGalore said:

Camille is what people want the Black Album to be - quirky, funky, weird, sexy, alluring. It succeeds in all the ways Black Album horribly fails.


I’ll never understand why he didn’t put crystal ball and rebirth of the flesh on the Black Album instead of 2 nigs and dead on it. It would have been killer

My guess but I'd say CB was simply out of topic, and ROTF was always thought of as an opener and thematically Le Grind fulfilled a similar purpose but way more in line with the BA concept (and way more dancefloor friendly). So to me it's a no brainer.
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Reply #39 posted 07/13/20 9:03pm

slyjackson

databank said:

slyjackson said:

I reckon it would have been a great album, weird and quirky. Housequake would have been the first single then Strange Relationship, IIWYG, Shockadelica and Good Love the last single.

Shockadelica was planned as the first single. Nothing is known about further singles.

Really? I didn't know that, it would have been great, I deem that song as a great one. Though, it's missing a little southern guitar in the bridge.

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Reply #40 posted 07/14/20 2:19am

databank

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slyjackson said:

databank said:

slyjackson said: Shockadelica was planned as the first single. Nothing is known about further singles.

Really? I didn't know that, it would have been great, I deem that song as a great one. Though, it's missing a little southern guitar in the bridge.

I'd say it's an odd choice for a single, not very accessible material for the masses. But I guess that, like TBA, the project would have been more of a statement than an attempt to hit the charts.

The b-side of that first intended single was to be Housequake BTW.

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Reply #41 posted 07/14/20 5:47am

mediumdry

Just trying to get the right timeline, but it's difficult.

.

The story is:

-Jesse Johnson releases Crazay as a single (and as he says it, it was #1 when Susan Rogers called him about the song Shockadelica)

-Prince hears about Jesse's soon to be released album with title Shockadelica, but without title song

-Prince records the song Shockadelica on 16 September 1986

-Prince gets Susan Rogers to inform Jesse that he'll get a tape of the song

-Jesse says "no thank you"

-Prince then acts like a jerk and debuts the song on radio "a few days after recording it" and "a few weeks before Jesse's album was to come out" (date unknown?)

-Camille album gets sequenced, gets a catalog number and test pressing, scheduled for January 1987

-First Camille single, Shockadelica, gets test pressing 6 November 1986 (with Housequake as B side)

-Prince abandons Camille concept

-Prince sequences first Crystal Ball on 30 November

-Sign of the Times is released 30 March 1987

-If I Was Your Girlfriend is released as single, with Shockadelica as B side on 6 May 1987

.

Question is, when did the album Shockadelica come out? All I could find is "1986". It must have been towards the end, otherwise the timeline doesn't make sense. Also, it seems likely that Shockadelica couldn't have actually been included anymore on Jesse's album, or not easily. According to Jesse, the album was already out.

.

Does anyone know the correct order of events?

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Reply #42 posted 07/14/20 5:55am

databank

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H
[Edited 7/14/20 5:58am]
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Reply #43 posted 07/14/20 6:01am

databank

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mediumdry said:

Just trying to get the right timeline, but it's difficult.


.


The story is:


-Jesse Johnson releases Crazay as a single (and as he says it, it was #1 when Susan Rogers called him about the song Shockadelica)


-Prince hears about Jesse's soon to be released album with title Shockadelica, but without title song


-Prince records the song Shockadelica on 16 September 1986


-Prince gets Susan Rogers to inform Jesse that he'll get a tape of the song


-Jesse says "no thank you"


-Prince then acts like a jerk and debuts the song on radio "a few days after recording it" and "a few weeks before Jesse's album was to come out" (date unknown?)


-Camille album gets sequenced, gets a catalog number and test pressing, scheduled for January 1987


-First Camille single, Shockadelica, gets test pressing 6 November 1986 (with Housequake as B side)


-Prince abandons Camille concept


-Prince sequences first Crystal Ball on 30 November


-Sign of the Times is released 30 March 1987


-If I Was Your Girlfriend is released as single, with Shockadelica as B side on 6 May 1987


.


Question is, when did the album Shockadelica come out? All I could find is "1986". It must have been towards the end, otherwise the timeline doesn't make sense. Also, it seems likely that Shockadelica couldn't have actually been included anymore on Jesse's album, or not easily. According to Jesse, the album was already out.


.


Does anyone know the correct order of events?


The answer to your question is on my website, the album was released on 09/22/86.
I now realize this makes the narrative a little odd, as it means that it was too late anyway for Jesse to include the song even if he'd wanted to. But Prince probably wasn't aware of the release date. I must also admit that I don't remember how I found the release date for the album but if I put it on the site it should mean that my source was reliable.
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Reply #44 posted 07/14/20 11:48am

nayroo2002

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SHUT UP ALREADY!

DAMN!!!

"Whatever skin Ur in
we all need 2 b friends"
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Reply #45 posted 07/14/20 10:13pm

slyjackson

I don't know bout you but to me IIWYG, Strange Realationship and Shockadelica should have been togheter, specially IIWYG and Shockadelica.

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Reply #46 posted 07/15/20 8:42pm

woogiebear

databank said:

mediumdry said:

Just trying to get the right timeline, but it's difficult.

.

The story is:

-Jesse Johnson releases Crazay as a single (and as he says it, it was #1 when Susan Rogers called him about the song Shockadelica)

-Prince hears about Jesse's soon to be released album with title Shockadelica, but without title song

-Prince records the song Shockadelica on 16 September 1986

-Prince gets Susan Rogers to inform Jesse that he'll get a tape of the song

-Jesse says "no thank you"

-Prince then acts like a jerk and debuts the song on radio "a few days after recording it" and "a few weeks before Jesse's album was to come out" (date unknown?)

-Camille album gets sequenced, gets a catalog number and test pressing, scheduled for January 1987

-First Camille single, Shockadelica, gets test pressing 6 November 1986 (with Housequake as B side)

-Prince abandons Camille concept

-Prince sequences first Crystal Ball on 30 November

-Sign of the Times is released 30 March 1987

-If I Was Your Girlfriend is released as single, with Shockadelica as B side on 6 May 1987

.

Question is, when did the album Shockadelica come out? All I could find is "1986". It must have been towards the end, otherwise the timeline doesn't make sense. Also, it seems likely that Shockadelica couldn't have actually been included anymore on Jesse's album, or not easily. According to Jesse, the album was already out.

.

Does anyone know the correct order of events?

The answer to your question is on my website, the album was released on 09/22/86. I now realize this makes the narrative a little odd, as it means that it was too late anyway for Jesse to include the song even if he'd wanted to. But Prince probably wasn't aware of the release date. I must also admit that I don't remember how I found the release date for the album but if I put it on the site it should mean that my source was reliable.

Jesse told this Story @ His Bunkers Shows in MPLS (2017). After declining Prince's Song, Prince said "Well if U don't put it out I am. And when I do NOBODY is gonna care bout Ur Album"!! Mind U, Jesse worked w/Sly Stone on said Album (Crazay), who Prince LOVED!!!!

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Reply #47 posted 07/15/20 11:36pm

SoulAlive

^^ I remember Jesse was so pissed about this.He did an interview with Rock N’Soul magazine where he totally trashed Prince.He felt that,if Prince released a song called “Shockadelica”,it would look like he stole the idea/title from Prince.
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Reply #48 posted 07/16/20 4:25am

databank

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SoulAlive said:

^^ I remember Jesse was so pissed about this.He did an interview with Rock N’Soul magazine where he totally trashed Prince.He felt that,if Prince released a song called “Shockadelica”,it would look like he stole the idea/title from Prince.

These guys were funny. I mean, by releasing the song as a b-side, 8 months after Jesse's album, when said album's promotion was probably reaching its end anyway, Prince probably didn't do much harm.

Now of course playing it on KMOJ a few days (not weeks, contrarily to what Princevault says, at least if my dates are correct) before the album got out was more of a meanie, but my understanding is that the song was only played once, and it was a local radio.

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Reply #49 posted 07/16/20 5:58pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

soladeo1 said:

It would rightfully be considered to be perhaps “Prince’s” greatest album ever. It’s a god-smacking masterpiece, from the first second. The perfect summary of his genius and uniqueness and playfulness and mirth and mystery. All killer, no filler.

Don't get me wrong, it would have been Canon Golden for sure in the line of his 80s output but I don't think the music is 'masterpiece' in the level of instrumental/sounds from other albums, to be 'greatest' but it sure would have been a great Prince release to stand with the other albums.

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Reply #50 posted 08/07/20 12:30am

haveaglamslam

TrivialPursuit said:

LoveGalore said:


I'm very surprised "Superfunky" didn't end up on SOTT. Smack dab in the middle of the sessions, around the time he is disbanding the Rev and itching to get back to something more akin to his grimier days, and yet it gets passed up for stuff like "Starfish and Coffee."


That's not totally implausible. Disk 1 of SOTT feels slightly less cohesive than Disk 2. Disk 2's only issue, for me and I previous stated this elsewhere, was "The Cross." And while I love "Beautiful Night," it could have been omittied in favor of including something like "Superfunky" somewhere on the record. I'd even swap "IT" for "Feel U Up," although I like the song. It could've found life as a b-side instead.

There is some sort of charm to the Camille tracks being scattered about the way they were, even thru 1988 with "Scarlet Pussy." Reminds me of what he did with the HIGH album tracks.

I have a custom versino of SOTT, the track listing is a bit different with a few songs replaced but it flows really well.

Sign O' The Times

Play in the Sunshine

Housequake

The Ballad of Dorothy Parker

Shockadelica

Starfish and Coffee

Slow Love

Rebirth of The Flesh

Forever In My Life

The Ball

If I Was Your Girlfriend

Strange Relationship

I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man

The Cross

It's Gonna Be a Beautiful Night

Adore

I think, I'd change Adore to not have the songs fade into each other, and I'd possibly replace Forever with Crucial

[Edited 8/7/20 0:33am]

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Reply #51 posted 08/07/20 6:37pm

slyjackson

haveaglamslam said:

TrivialPursuit said:


That's not totally implausible. Disk 1 of SOTT feels slightly less cohesive than Disk 2. Disk 2's only issue, for me and I previous stated this elsewhere, was "The Cross." And while I love "Beautiful Night," it could have been omittied in favor of including something like "Superfunky" somewhere on the record. I'd even swap "IT" for "Feel U Up," although I like the song. It could've found life as a b-side instead.

There is some sort of charm to the Camille tracks being scattered about the way they were, even thru 1988 with "Scarlet Pussy." Reminds me of what he did with the HIGH album tracks.

I have a custom versino of SOTT, the track listing is a bit different with a few songs replaced but it flows really well.

Sign O' The Times

Play in the Sunshine

Housequake

The Ballad of Dorothy Parker

Shockadelica

Starfish and Coffee

Slow Love

Rebirth of The Flesh

Forever In My Life

The Ball

If I Was Your Girlfriend

Strange Relationship

I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man

The Cross

It's Gonna Be a Beautiful Night

Adore

I think, I'd change Adore to not have the songs fade into each other, and I'd possibly replace Forever with Crucial

[Edited 8/7/20 0:33am]

I likec that you included Shockadelica, great song.

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Reply #52 posted 08/08/20 4:30am

GirlBrother

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I think the more interesting question is what would have replaced the Camille album tracks on Sign O' The Times, had the Camille album been released? hmmm
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Reply #53 posted 08/08/20 3:30pm

JudasLChrist

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mbdtyler said:

Swap out "Good Love" and maybe one other song for "Crystal Ball", and I honestly think it would have rivaled SOTT as we know it as a single-disc/LP release


This.

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Reply #54 posted 08/10/20 1:12am

anthonyspeaks

The 'Camille' album IMO was the funk bible! Seriously, Prince was channeling funk in a major way on this album. Camille would've stood as one of his funkiest albums; a very concentrated effort with no filler. Promotion and marketing would've been interesting, but the music stands on it's own and speaks for itself and definitely would've sold itself. The 'Camille' helped sell SOTT!

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Reply #55 posted 08/10/20 2:58am

Neversin

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soladeo1 said:

If CAMILLE was released as a stand alone album in early ‘87....


It would have probably accompanied something else with a massive marketing push to satify WBR need for another "Purple Rain" (-like success...)

Neversin.

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