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Thread started 07/23/02 1:53am

JonnyBoyRebel

Save your foreign policy!!!

I know this isnt really the platform to be asking such a question, but its the only platform I know where there are enough Americans to get a kind of general idea.

So this is it:

1) The Kyoto convention, a world treaty designed to cut global emissions by certain factors over a certain period of time has been shunned by the Bush administration. The US being the single most polutant to the earths atmosphere contributing to over 25% of all Co2 emitions globally with a population percentage of under 5% of all people that live on this planet.

2) The US has withdrawn its support to the United Nations Population Fund, an organisation set up to help the third world with family planning and healthy living in order to try and prevent poverty, hunger, human rights violations against practices like one child families in places like China etc etc. The funds would have helped prevent two million unwanted pregnancies, nearly 800,000 forced abortions, 4,700 maternal deaths and 77,000 infant and child deaths.

3) Europe has imposed selective sanctions on Zimbabwes leadership, freezing their assets and preventing travel to any EU country for the likes of Robert Mugabe and co. Mugabe, the president, is in violation of human rights, starving Zimbabwes once prosperous population with his so called 'land reforms' agenda which targets the very people who not only fed the country, but also half of the sub-Saharan Africa (South Africa aside). His land reforms involve the pillage and murder of the farmers who run this vital industry. The US has refused to apply sanctions on the leadership of the country and instead has opted to withold aid to an already drought ravished region. This means that the leadership still has its hands on the money it craves whilst the people go hungry, and in some cases starve to death.

4) South Africa had to take the US to the court of human rights (thats right! the US was up in front of the court of human rights!) because of the duties it imposed on HIV and AIDS drugs, pricing Africa out of the equation. Africa, not just suffering from AIDS but plagued by it is in dire need of these vital drugs which can prolong life. The US imposed such high duties (admittedly it was also the companies themselves which imposed high prices) that Africa could not afford them. Eventually the Africans won and have the drugs at substantially cheaper prices. Unfortunately, the sqabbling and squandering of African politics has meant that the drugs are still not doing what they wre intended for - helping the sick and needy.

So whats my point? It seems to me that the foreign policy of the United States has become untennable as the worlds richest country and only super power. It would seem that all foreign policy agreements are being withdrawn and only extend as far as places like Afghanistan and Iraq. Im not saying that we in Europe have got it right though. I mean we have our own absurdities too like farming subsidies which pays farmers to DESTROY their crops rather than over produce. But in the examples above when it involves such crucial topics like the destruction of our own planet, it seems that the US is taking a very insular approach at the expense of the rest of the worlds population. Even on your own doorstep! Whereby the protected national parks of Alaska are having their status of protection lifted by the Bush administration so that they can drill for oil. Is nothing sacred? Not even your own wilderness?

My problem is not with the American people. My problem is with the current administration. Bush is a selfish conceited politician with very few morals. So my question is this - How many Americans are actually aware of the foreign policy that your country has adopted, and how many actually support it? I suspect that your government neglects to tell you what policies it is pursuing abroad as it has the convenient matter of Afghanistan to distract you from the rest of the worlds plight.

As the largest and most prosperous economy in the world, the US has a duty to humanity to help those in more need than itself. If the US continues to follow this insular road then more and more of the suffering world will target you. Al quada should be a warning about what can happen when the US administration gets its head stuck up its ass!
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Reply #1 posted 07/23/02 3:35am

eos23

JonnyBoyRebel said:[quote]I know this isnt really the platform to be asking such a question, but its the only platform I know where there are enough Americans to get a kind of general idea.


First of all this guy wasn't even elected, he was "selected" for more information on that I would suggest u go to the website of the civil rights commission, they went to Florida and held hearings about the 2000 election.

Second of all, he is finishing up his daddy's unfinished business. Had George (The daddy) gotten a second term, he would have finished up his own dirty laundry. It's about profit, that's all, that should be apparent, this administration cares nothing about people, Foreign or otherwise, unless of course u have something that they want.

Most of the American people are too busy making ends meet, to really challenge this administration on it's policies, but I guess u can take comfort in knowing that there have been mass protests and demonstrations in the U.S, but being that our constitutional right to speak out is being taken away, I don't know how much longer the demonstrators will be out there. Anyone who isn't supporting this administration and it's policies is labled a "terrorist" or "unamerican" and this country is stepping up surveillence on it's private citizens, in fact this thread I'm sure will catch their attention.

I guess it's up to the other country's to do something about this administration, Call an emergency meeting of the minds or something. The American people are just pawns in this sick twisted game of greed and corruption.( or should I say they are just collateral damage)
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Reply #2 posted 07/23/02 5:49am

JonnyBoyRebel

eos23 said:[quote]

JonnyBoyRebel said:

I know this isnt really the platform to be asking such a question, but its the only platform I know where there are enough Americans to get a kind of general idea.


First of all this guy wasn't even elected, he was "selected" for more information on that I would suggest u go to the website of the civil rights commission, they went to Florida and held hearings about the 2000 election.

Second of all, he is finishing up his daddy's unfinished business. Had George (The daddy) gotten a second term, he would have finished up his own dirty laundry. It's about profit, that's all, that should be apparent, this administration cares nothing about people, Foreign or otherwise, unless of course u have something that they want.

Most of the American people are too busy making ends meet, to really challenge this administration on it's policies, but I guess u can take comfort in knowing that there have been mass protests and demonstrations in the U.S, but being that our constitutional right to speak out is being taken away, I don't know how much longer the demonstrators will be out there. Anyone who isn't supporting this administration and it's policies is labled a "terrorist" or "unamerican" and this country is stepping up surveillence on it's private citizens, in fact this thread I'm sure will catch their attention.

I guess it's up to the other country's to do something about this administration, Call an emergency meeting of the minds or something. The American people are just pawns in this sick twisted game of greed and corruption.( or should I say they are just collateral damage)


I couldnt agree more with what you say. I dont profess to know too much about the internal workings of the American political machine, but I see similar workings creeping into our own political systems over here in Europe.

Take the UK for example. Tony Blair and his cronies are becoming more and more of a 'rule with an iron fist' type of government where the people are having more and more freedoms taken away, all in the name of safety, protection and ironically, freedom. The nanny state!

Yet the control they are imposing is actually having a reverse effect on what they are trying to achieve. Fortunately for us we are not yet at the point where our leaders are smothering the truth, unlike the Americans, our television and news coverage is still very global whereas in the states I believe it is something like 98.8% of all television is homegrown. Hence the possibility for internal propaganda is easier.

Incidently, the UK is flying out 100 political representatives to Johannesburg for a world climate conference, the Earth summit it is called. A conference that is catering for 60,000 global politicians and meddlers. 60 fucking thousand! It will take 150 boeing 747s belching out 'muck' from the jets, thousands of stretch limos belching out greenhouse gasses as they are chaufured from venue to banquet to venue again. And all this at a cost of $8000 per head. All payed for by there respective tax payers!

Whatever happened to video conferencing?

[INFO TAKEN FROM TODAYS DAILY RAGS!]
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Reply #3 posted 07/23/02 5:59am

Arcamar

Sad, very sad. But not new, good to remind about it. We will find a solution for this case. Every case has to been solved for the for all. Or should somes made a role exchange for a time?
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Reply #4 posted 07/23/02 6:36am

IceNine

avatar

Continuing on my quest to provide meaningful song lyrics to topical messages... try this song from the classic punk band, FEAR:


FOREIGN POLICY

Eliminate the incompetents!
Difference don't exist in harmony.
Survival is superiority.
We don't need no hands across the sea!

We've got...

Foreign policy (x3)

The lines are drawn!
Establish the new order!
Suspect everyone!
Know your enemies!

We've got...

Foreign Policy (x3)

Hatred is purity!
Weakness is disease!
Well, we'll bury you,
This manifest destiny!

We've got...

Foreign Policy
SUPERJOINT RITUAL - http://www.superjointritual.com
A Lethal Dose of American Hatred
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Reply #5 posted 07/23/02 6:46am

wellbeyond

I'll only speak on the issue I know anything about...

"1) The Kyoto convention, a world treaty designed to cut global emissions by certain factors over a certain period of time has been shunned by the Bush administration. The US being the single most polutant to the earths atmosphere contributing to over 25% of all Co2 emitions globally with a population percentage of under 5% of all people that live on this planet."

The Kyoto Treaty is so horrendously flawed that Congress voted unanimously against it back during Clinton's term, not Bush's...Bush hasn't done an about-face on America's stance on that messy treaty, because it's been the U.S. stance to be against the Kyoto treaty even before he ran for office...and for either branch of Congress--the birthplace of partisan bickering--to agree unanimously on anything says a shitload...not to mention that a huge number of scientist don't even think the Kyoto treaty should be passed and followed...

Example:

"It is regrettable that ecologist George Woodwell and energy policy specialist John Holdren ("Climate-Change Skeptics Are Wrong, IHT , Nov. 14-15) find it necessary to use vituperative language in their attempt to downplay the existence of widespread scientific dissent to the activist view of global warming. They were commenting on an article by columnist Jeff Jacoby (ÏThe 'Chicken Little' Mindset, IHT, Nov. 7), which mentioned prominent scientists who oppose the Kyoto climate accord.

Both the 1996 Leipzig Declaration and the 1998 Oregon Petition (signed by over 17,000 scientists, two-thirds with advanced degrees) are subscribed to by well-recognized experts, including members of the National Academy of Sciences and scientist-participants in the UN-sponsored climate reports. The names of all of the signers of the Oregon Petition were rechecked and verified. As for the Leipzig Declaration, perhaps Woodwell and Holdren are confusing it with a 1997 pro-global warming petition circulated by a Green group called Ozone Action; the OA petition was indeed found to have been signed by numerous non-scientists. Signatories to the Leipzig Declaration, and their impressive credentials, are posted on the Internet at www.sepp.org. Each of those listed requested in writing that their name be added.

More to the point, Woodwell and Holdren seem unaware that the observed temperatures, as recorded by instruments on satellites and on weather balloons, show no discernible warming trend in the past two decades, which strongly conflicts with the results of computer climate models. Based on the available evidence from actual observations, most scientists would extrapolate at most a slight warming by the year 2100, which would barely be detectable and most certainly inconsequential.

In contrast, the framers of the infamous Kyoto Protocol posit a catastrophic climate 'disruption', and then put forth a strategy that, even if stringently enforced, would reduce their forecast warming by just 0.05 degrees. For this minute amount, the United States would have to cut its energy use by about 35 percent within a decade, at a huge economic cost.

No serious scientist would endorse such a plan, and more than 17,000 of them — hardly a "handful" — have said so, for the record."~~Dr. Frederick Seitz, Dr. S. Fred Singer

An accord that requires the U.S. to cut back its energy use 35%, so as to reduce the warming trend less than 1/10th of one half of a degree over the next 100 years??...and this makes sense to people??...

Or this:

"In 1990, the IPCC predicted that global temperatures would rise 6° F by 2100. Just three years later, the IPCC adjusted its warming projection downward, forecasting that temperatures would rise less than 2° F, a noticeable temperature increase but hardly a cause for concern. Natural temperature increases of 3° to 4° F have occurred in past centuries and have generally benefited humanity by prolonging growing seasons and promoting mild weather.

But it is significant that the world's temperature is not rising. Predictions of global warming are not coming true. NASA's Tiros weather satellites, the most accurate barometers of global temperature, show that the Earth has slightly cooled since 1979, contradicting global warming doomsayers who predicted that human-induced warming should have caused the temperature to increase 0.6° F by now."

Would you really want to frame and implement such drastic policy measures based on the predictions of this group, when it's own predictions end up changing drastically in just 3 years???

And finally, this:

"The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), a liberal advocacy organization, points to the 1,500 scientists who signed a 1997 UCS document endorsing major cuts in greenhouse gases as evidence of scientific support for the global warming theory. But since then, nearly 17,000 scientists have signed a petition, organized by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, which declares that, "There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of... greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere." The signers include 2,100 climatologists, meteorologists and environmental scientists who are especially well-qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide on the Earth's climate."


To sum up something like Bush's opposition to the Kyoto treaty in such a generalized way obviously does not paint a realistic portrait of Bush, the Kyoto treaty, or of America's stance and reasoning behind it's stance...


...yeeeeep...
[This message was edited Tue Jul 23 8:18:10 PDT 2002 by wellbeyond]
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Reply #6 posted 07/24/02 7:30pm

Abrazo

wellbeyond said:[quote]An accord that requires the U.S. to cut back its energy use 35%, so as to reduce the warming trend less than 1/10th of one half of a degree over the next 100 years??...and this makes sense to people??...

well... I am wondering why it is apparently only the United States who has a problem with cutting back its energy use... No wonder when Las Vegas only uses zillion times more energy than any normal human being would ever need in his life.
It is basically a shame that your society is so dependent on its excessive use of natural energy resources and so unwilling to give up your excessive rich lifestyles that THAT is the only real reason why there is still nothing happening within the US itself to do something about it.
You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #7 posted 07/24/02 7:49pm

TheSkinMechani
c

At least in California they have at last started clamping down on gas guzzling cars, i forget what you Americans call them, S.U.Vs?? anyway, they only do 15 miles per gallon, FIFTEEN!!! and people are complaining about having their freedoms taken away with this legislation! lol.. it should have been in place years ago, throughout America.

Anyway, can I go off on a tangent? While we are asking if the Americans know about their foreign policy, can I also ask if they know about the business links between Ladens family and the Bush family? and how ladens brother was allowed to leave America while under investigation for terrorist activities and/or fund raising?
[This message was edited Fri Jul 26 6:21:57 PDT 2002 by TheSkinMechanic]
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Reply #8 posted 07/24/02 8:38pm

Abrazo

duh...
You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #9 posted 07/24/02 10:45pm

endorphin74

Americans as a whole, are much too busy and self absorbed to pay attention to these issues. "We" learn what we do from 30 second soundbytes on network news and reading headlines on the daily papers. "We" generally all work more than 40 hours a week and take less time off then peole in other nations. "We" are so well trained to earn and consume that no energy is left for following these politics.

Sad but true...

And, please note I say "we" as a VERY general term, amny Americans do follow these issues, but many more don't.

A couple tidbits...

Bush has acknowledged that global warming is occuring..in spite of years of our government trying to paint this theory as flawed. His response, though, is since it's happening, we must learn how to deal with it.

In spite of the fact that we are 'at war' with the area of the world where we get our oil, never ONCE has our administration called for Americans to be more responsible about energy usage.

CA, is working to legislate improved vehicle efficieny, but this will be fought by the auto industry and probably tied up in courts for years...

Lastly, in our 'free' country. Our administration has set up a "TIPS" program urging workers who's job takes them into homes on a regular basis (UPS delivery drivers, cable installers, gas or phone repairers) to take notes of "suspicious activity" and report this to the government.

Our administraion first stripped many of our basic civil liberties protections after 9-11 and now is trying to turn the public against each other and into a bunch of "spies".

I love the country I live in, but it's by no means perfect. All things are cyclical, though, so I just continue to speak my mind and hope that this too will pass...
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Reply #10 posted 07/24/02 11:10pm

wellbeyond

Abrazo said:

well... I am wondering why it is apparently only the United States who has a problem with cutting back its energy use...

You really think the U.S. is the only country that thinks the Kyoto Treaty is a waste of time??...C'man, Abrazo, I know you're a smart man, and you MUST know that it's NOT just the "greedy, capitalistic" Americans who want to use up all of the Earth's resources to run slot machines n Vegas who find flaws in this treaty...Japan, Australia and Russia all have problems with it..even Canada...some of their concerns deal directly with how worthwhile the treaty would be if the U.S. doesn't participate, because of how signing the Kyoto agreement without America on board would effect them economically--which, ironically, is exactly the stance the U.S. is taking, one of focusing on if the economic costs are worth the puny emissions decrease that would realistically occur in the next 100 years if the treaty is signed...

Besides, none of your anti-American rhetoric even addressed the very real points I made...simply saying the equivalent of "Well, that's the U.S. for ya" won't cut it...
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Reply #11 posted 07/24/02 11:14pm

Nep2nes

wellbeyond said:

I'll only speak on the issue I know anything about...

"1) The Kyoto convention, a world treaty designed to cut global emissions by certain factors over a certain period of time has been shunned by the Bush administration. The US being the single most polutant to the earths atmosphere contributing to over 25% of all Co2 emitions globally with a population percentage of under 5% of all people that live on this planet."

The Kyoto Treaty is so horrendously flawed that Congress voted unanimously against it back during Clinton's term, not Bush's...Bush hasn't done an about-face on America's stance on that messy treaty, because it's been the U.S. stance to be against the Kyoto treaty even before he ran for office...and for either branch of Congress--the birthplace of partisan bickering--to agree unanimously on anything says a shitload...not to mention that a huge number of scientist don't even think the Kyoto treaty should be passed and followed...

Example:

"It is regrettable that ecologist George Woodwell and energy policy specialist John Holdren ("Climate-Change Skeptics Are Wrong, IHT , Nov. 14-15) find it necessary to use vituperative language in their attempt to downplay the existence of widespread scientific dissent to the activist view of global warming. They were commenting on an article by columnist Jeff Jacoby (ÏThe 'Chicken Little' Mindset, IHT, Nov. 7), which mentioned prominent scientists who oppose the Kyoto climate accord.

Both the 1996 Leipzig Declaration and the 1998 Oregon Petition (signed by over 17,000 scientists, two-thirds with advanced degrees) are subscribed to by well-recognized experts, including members of the National Academy of Sciences and scientist-participants in the UN-sponsored climate reports. The names of all of the signers of the Oregon Petition were rechecked and verified. As for the Leipzig Declaration, perhaps Woodwell and Holdren are confusing it with a 1997 pro-global warming petition circulated by a Green group called Ozone Action; the OA petition was indeed found to have been signed by numerous non-scientists. Signatories to the Leipzig Declaration, and their impressive credentials, are posted on the Internet at www.sepp.org. Each of those listed requested in writing that their name be added.

More to the point, Woodwell and Holdren seem unaware that the observed temperatures, as recorded by instruments on satellites and on weather balloons, show no discernible warming trend in the past two decades, which strongly conflicts with the results of computer climate models. Based on the available evidence from actual observations, most scientists would extrapolate at most a slight warming by the year 2100, which would barely be detectable and most certainly inconsequential.

In contrast, the framers of the infamous Kyoto Protocol posit a catastrophic climate 'disruption', and then put forth a strategy that, even if stringently enforced, would reduce their forecast warming by just 0.05 degrees. For this minute amount, the United States would have to cut its energy use by about 35 percent within a decade, at a huge economic cost.

No serious scientist would endorse such a plan, and more than 17,000 of them — hardly a "handful" — have said so, for the record."~~Dr. Frederick Seitz, Dr. S. Fred Singer

An accord that requires the U.S. to cut back its energy use 35%, so as to reduce the warming trend less than 1/10th of one half of a degree over the next 100 years??...and this makes sense to people??...

Or this:

"In 1990, the IPCC predicted that global temperatures would rise 6° F by 2100. Just three years later, the IPCC adjusted its warming projection downward, forecasting that temperatures would rise less than 2° F, a noticeable temperature increase but hardly a cause for concern. Natural temperature increases of 3° to 4° F have occurred in past centuries and have generally benefited humanity by prolonging growing seasons and promoting mild weather.

But it is significant that the world's temperature is not rising. Predictions of global warming are not coming true. NASA's Tiros weather satellites, the most accurate barometers of global temperature, show that the Earth has slightly cooled since 1979, contradicting global warming doomsayers who predicted that human-induced warming should have caused the temperature to increase 0.6° F by now."

Would you really want to frame and implement such drastic policy measures based on the predictions of this group, when it's own predictions end up changing drastically in just 3 years???

And finally, this:

"The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), a liberal advocacy organization, points to the 1,500 scientists who signed a 1997 UCS document endorsing major cuts in greenhouse gases as evidence of scientific support for the global warming theory. But since then, nearly 17,000 scientists have signed a petition, organized by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, which declares that, "There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of... greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere." The signers include 2,100 climatologists, meteorologists and environmental scientists who are especially well-qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide on the Earth's climate."


To sum up something like Bush's opposition to the Kyoto treaty in such a generalized way obviously does not paint a realistic portrait of Bush, the Kyoto treaty, or of America's stance and reasoning behind it's stance...


...yeeep...
[This message was edited Tue Jul 23 8:18:10 PDT 2002 by wellbeyond]


I didn't even read this--but I'll go with wellbeyond. biggrin

I've had enough of some of u 2nite!!!

So far I've been called an ignorant, lying piece of shit by abrazo.

My work here is finished, I suppose. wink
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Reply #12 posted 07/24/02 11:17pm

Nep2nes

wellbeyond said:

C'man, Abrazo, I know you're a smart man,


neutral confused lol lol

Awww, shit. That was incredibly funny. ur a laugh a minute wellbeyond. wink

I think some sort of past grudge against a certain American might be clouding his thinking. He's had nothing but negative things 2 say. I once asked him 2 say ONE good thing about us. No reply.

Yes, abrazo...it is true, we ARE satan! Now run 4 ur life, or we'll eat ur brain.

bored rolleyes

.
[This message was edited Wed Jul 24 23:18:20 PDT 2002 by Nep2nes]
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Reply #13 posted 07/24/02 11:19pm

wellbeyond

Nep2nes said:

wellbeyond said:

C'man, Abrazo, I know you're a smart man,


neutral confused lol lol

Awww, shit. That was incredibly funny. ur a laugh a minute wellbeyond. wink

I try... smile
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Reply #14 posted 07/24/02 11:33pm

Bibleteacher89

Two Scripures come to mind...
Ecclesiastes 8:9 " All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury."


Revelation 11:18"the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth."


This is one example out of many why Jehovah's Witnesses advocate God's Kingdom and teach people what the Bible says regarding such things. Man is not fit to rule himself. They have more than proven this. That is why these corrupt impotent governments must be replaced and soon. God's Kingdom is the only lasting solution for solving such problems, not to mention the end of sickness, injustice, racism, disease, old age and death. Soon, my friends, we will experience the benefits of this government. Earth will finally be at peace and people of all nations will be taken care of as they deserve, impartially.
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Reply #15 posted 07/24/02 11:41pm

Abrazo

wellbeyond said:

Abrazo said:

well... I am wondering why it is apparently only the United States who has a problem with cutting back its energy use...

You really think the U.S. is the only country that thinks the Kyoto Treaty is a waste of time??...C'man, Abrazo, I know you're a smart man, and you MUST know that it's NOT just the "greedy, capitalistic" Americans who want to use up all of the Earth's resources to run slot machines n Vegas who find flaws in this treaty...Japan, Australia and Russia all have problems with it..even Canada...some of their concerns deal directly with how worthwhile the treaty would be if the U.S. doesn't participate, because of how signing the Kyoto agreement without America on board would effect them economically--which, ironically, is exactly the stance the U.S. is taking, one of focusing on if the economic costs are worth the puny emissions decrease that would realistically occur in the next 100 years if the treaty is signed...

Besides, none of your anti-American rhetoric even addressed the very real points I made...simply saying the equivalent of "Well, that's the U.S. for ya" won't cut it...


It doesn't matter if it will "cut it"... I was merely saying what I was wondering about. And I have nowhere said that only the "big bad USA" is the one who is trying to fuck around with the climate. I am merely wondering why you so stubbornly refuse to go along with anything and I think that some explanations I give to you go in the right direction...
And don't worry, I do realise these matters are so complex that you, nor anybody else can really say they have all the facts.

What you can do however is take a stance for the climat and future generations of this Earth...

and act with caution towards the ever increasing human pollution of the earth and its atmosphere. Believing that this polution has no real affect is in my opinion naively assuming that the earth was made to carry factories and cars blowing out billions of tons carbon oxide and other poisonous gasses.

instead of squabling over all these contradicting scientist reports one could at least try to do something. And from what I understand the USA is really the only country who simply refuses to try and join the treaty and will only join when it's fully drafted on their terms and conditions . This really means that all the rest of the nations are willing to go ahead with it except for the USA.

But indeed if the USA, who is reponsible for roughly a third of all polution, won't go along and will continue to isolate itself in as many economical and political ways as possible from the rest of the world for the sake of their own economy,which is btw understandable but never a full justification, it is to me clear that the intention will never come unless your government has all the proof without a single doubt that polluting as much as we all do, IS in fact severely affecting the Earth's climate and I am afraid the damge THEN and for future generations will already be done...

But hey that's just me having my own opinions.
You are not my "friend" because you threaten my security.
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Reply #16 posted 07/24/02 11:49pm

endorphin74

Abrazo said:

But hey that's just me having my own opinions.


Haven't you learned? Having your own opinion isn't encouraged in these parts...

biggrin
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Reply #17 posted 07/25/02 12:01am

wellbeyond

Abrazo said:

It doesn't matter if it will "cut it"... I was merely saying what I was wondering about.

Well, it was obvious that your "wondering" wasn't authentic, because you answered yourself in your previous post..("No wonder when Las Vegas only uses zillion times more energy than any normal human being would ever need in his life...your society is so dependent on its excessive use of natural energy resources and so unwilling to give up your excessive rich lifestyles...THAT is the only real reason why there is still nothing happening within the US itself to do something about it.")...when you answer your own question, Abrazo, you have effectively gone beyond mere "wondering"...you can't wonder about something you feel you already know the answer to..

And I have nowhere said that only the "big bad USA" is the one who is trying to fuck around with the climate.

No, what you said was the U.S. is the "only" country that has a "problem with cutting back its energy use"...which, of course, is ridiculous, because the U.S. HAS cut down on it's energy use, even before this moronic Kyoto agreement...not to mention that the U.S. had suggested alternative amounts to cut back on its emissions, so we ARE willing to cut back, but because it's not "enough", it's portrayed as if the U.S. desires to do nothing at all...ever ask yourself why that is? I do...

instead of squabling over all these contradicting scientist reports one could at least try to do something. And from what I understand the USA is really the only country who simply refuses to try and join the treaty and will only join when it's fully drafted on their terms and conditions . This really means that all the rest of the nations are willing to go ahead with it except for the USA.

1) You have to "squabble" over contradicting scientific evidence!!!...lol...this treaty is a MONSTER in what it's proposing...to enact the treaty on flawed scientific theory would be a horrendous mistake to make...

2) Other countries had proposed ratified treaties, but the European Union will have none of that...it's "their" way or nothing, almost...so while we're busy faulting the U.S. for not backing down from their stance, let's make sure to do the same to the European Union...

But indeed if the USA, who is reponsible for roughly a third of all polution, won't go along and will continue to isolate itself in as many economical and political ways as possible from the rest of the world for the sake of their own economy,which is btw understandable but never a full justification, it is to me clear that the intention will never come unless your government has all the proof without a single doubt that polluting as much as we all do, IS in fact severely affecting the Earth's climate and I am afraid the damge THEN and for future generations will already be done...

1,700 scientists signed various petitions urging the passing of the Kyoto agreement...around 23,000 scientists signed various petitions urging not passing Kyoto...good intentions are all well and fine...but good intentions do not negate flaws...and there are flaws aplenty in the Kyoto agreement...none of which, mind you, bother to get addressed...the Kyoto agreement is presented for the most part as a selfless, flawless treaty every scientist feels is necessary, and that only the most coldhearted of governments would say "no" to...and THAT just irritates the hell out of me...if there can't be a more open and honest debate about something so potentially huge and encompassing as Kyoto, then something's wrong.
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Reply #18 posted 07/25/02 12:08am

Supernova

avatar

eek
'Sgonna be a long thread.
This post not for the wimp contingent. All whiny wusses avert your eyes.
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Reply #19 posted 07/25/02 7:39am

Bibleteacher89

BTW, I read a very interesting book by a guy who is a film director here in the USA named Michael Moore. It's called Stupid White Men. It is some pretty disturbing stuff. I read it out of shear curiosiy, having heard about it on Bill O'Reilly's show on FOX News months ago. If half of what he asserts is true about this current administration, There are some foxes guarding this hen house, that's for sure. Some of the things in this book seem so outlandish that they can hardly be believed. But I can't Imagine Bush & the boys having not crushed this guy with a libel suit if it were not. I dunno. As I said before, I'm neutral in politics. But, stuff like what is going on now is almost sure to be some of the most infamous history-in-the-making in US History(which I am voraciously a student of) if it ever catches the public eye.
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Reply #20 posted 07/25/02 8:02am

JDODSON

The US should have NO resposibility to anyone for anything, but unfortunately, beacuse of greed and dirty bedfellows, the US is still obligated to certain nations because of trade debt and unreasonable promises. If it were up to me, I would make it so that the US was completely self-sufficient on it's own resources and revert to isolationism, but hey, what do I know?


LOL

JD
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