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Reply #120 posted 09/21/19 3:16pm

IanRG

toejam said:

Poppys, I'm lost as to why you see my questions to Ian about how/when/what he taught his children about Jesus-God as "demanding". Ian was already discussing how he did not teach his children that Santa was real. Ian sarcastically answered the first of my questions and said he didn't want to answer any more. And I've already said that's fine. So I'm not sure how this counts as "demanding" and "trolling". I'm also not sure why asking questions about how/when/what one teaches their children about religion is off limits. I'm not forcing him to answer. He's already said he doesn't want to engage, and that's fine. . [Edited 9/21/19 14:57pm]

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The reason for the sarcasm is the same reason for poppys and maplenpg's responses and the same reason people across the forums you haunt so often don't wish to engage with you. You just don't get it. Your obsession with re-educating those you imagine you are superior to leads you to these types of exchanges time and time again. If I believed you were genuinley interested, I would engage, but we all know you are not.

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You evangelise your beliefs by seeking to mock the beliefs of others and you have been doing it for years.

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Reply #121 posted 09/21/19 3:22pm

toejam

avatar

Mapenpg, I hear what you're saying, but I have a slightly different view of things. Firstly, I am not advocating "forcing" anyone to believe against their will. But at the same time I believe it is a moral responsibility to help those lost in superstitious beliefs to overcome them - particularly superstitious beliefs that can be all-encroaching on one's life, as Islam can be to many Muslims. There are better reasons for thinking that Allah is just a superstition than that he is real and that he wants you to pray 5 times a day and has strict dietary, ritual and sexual requirements (etc.) of you. To withhold these reasons because you think their superstition brings them hope, joy, peace, etc., is understandable (and it's an issue I do wrestle over in my head) but at the same time I wonder if withholding such reasons underestimates them as people. Most ex-Muslims I know (my fiance and several of her family are) do not equate their loss of faith in Allah as coinciding with a loss of hope, joy, peace, etc. Indeed, most feel much more at peace than they did prior.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #122 posted 09/21/19 3:47pm

IanRG

toejam said:

Mapenpg, I hear what you're saying, but I have a slightly different view of things. Firstly, I am not advocating "forcing" anyone to believe against their will. But at the same time I believe it is a moral responsibility to help those lost in superstitious beliefs to overcome them - particularly superstitious beliefs that can be all-encroaching on one's life, as Islam can be to many Muslims. There are better reasons for thinking that Allah is just a superstition than that he is real and that he wants you to pray 5 times a day and has strict dietary, ritual and sexual requirements (etc.) of you. To withhold these reasons because you think their superstition brings them hope, joy, peace, etc., is understandable (and it's an issue I do wrestle over in my head) but at the same time I wonder if withholding such reasons underestimates them as people. Most ex-Muslims I know (my fiance and several of her family are) do not equate their loss of faith in Allah as coinciding with a loss of hope, joy, peace, etc. Indeed, most feel much more at peace than they did prior.

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Like the Khmer Rouge eased people's lives of their superstitions in Cambodia?

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God save us from those who think it is their moral responsibility to change others to be be just like them so everyone will be better off.

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Unless you can unequivocally prove that Allah does not exist, that Jesus is not God, that the Buddhas were wrong, all you are doing is evangelising your proofless faith as superior to everyone else's.

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You are doing the evil you see in others. And I mean this literally - If God exists and you are obsessed with re-educating others that God does not, then this is well within the definition of an evil act. If you seek to encourage parents to not teach religious morals, ethics, knowledge and beliefs until they reach an age you hope will discourage belief in these teachings, then that pretty much rounds out the definition of evil acts.

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Reply #123 posted 09/21/19 3:55pm

onlyforaminute

toejam said:



poppys said:


You have to wonder about people who demand specific answers on a public discussion website.



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Why wonder? If it's a public discussion forum, then ask them directly whatever it is you're wondering about! wink


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2freaky said:


I don't agree with the Muslim beliefs but I support them not being bombed.



Jesus did rise from the dead. I cannot prove it but I believe it. There is an empty tomb. The more important point was that two women first went to the tomb, that was when women were second class.



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I support not bombing Muslims either. I'd rather help educate them out of the superstition that is Islam.


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Nothing about Jesus can be "proven". Sure, it's likely there was a guy - some Jewish apocalyptic preacher who found himself on the wrong side of the Jewish & Roman aristocracy of the time and wound up on a cross, but beyond that it's hard to say much more with any fair degree of confidence. The empty tomb is certainly not a bedrock historical fact. Many historians dispute it, thinking that it's just another example of gospel myth-making, with the historical Jesus' body probably just tossed into a common grave instead like most other crucified seditionists.
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The Greek on Virgin is actually young woman. I think she had sex.



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Yep. If a historical Jesus existed, then he was certainly conceived due to his mother engaging in the usual form of sexual intercourse with a human male. Same goes for all the other ancient rulers and cult leaders whose propaganda often attributed fictitious 'miraculous-shenanigans' to stories of their conceptions and/or births. It was just something of a fad at the time. The gospel attributed to Matthew took a questionable Greek translation of Isaiah 7:14 and mistakenly thought it to be a prophecy about a virgin conceiving Jesus hundreds of years later, despite that the original Hebrew of Isaiah is not prophecying a virgin conceiving Jesus hundreds of years later, but of events expected to occur within 10-15yrs or so of a young woman's conception in Isaiah's present (8thC BCE). This, among many other examples, speaks to the unreliability of the gospels as historical sources (and as such, should have you at least twitching your eyebrow when it comes to swallowing the empty-tomb narratives as historical fact).


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onlyforaminute said:
I hate it when "discussions " turn like this. Even science gets taught to the young when every detail is not known. If you don't think so then you need to explain exactly what dark energy is. Or be a true advocate for not teaching youngsters anything until it can be proven beyond a shadow of doubt. What a waste of energy.



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I am not advocating teaching youngsters only things which can be proven. I am not one of those who think we should only believe that which can be proven. It's an untenable scenario. I can't "prove" that I'm not going to be involved in a serious car accident next time I drive. But the evidence is compelling to me that I *almost certainly* won't. It always comes down to where the evidence is pointing - not what can be "proven". I was simply asking Ian at what age he began teaching his children that Jesus-God was real and what reasons he gave them for thinking so. In my many years of conversations with Ian, it's clear to me that he does not have good reasons for beliving in a virgin-conceived, literally-risen, Trinitarian Jesus-God. There are better reasons for thinking that Jesus was just another cult hero with a falsely-attributed 'miraculous-conception' story, who simply stayed dead after his death, and is not the singular God of monotheism, etc. But Ian has said he's not interested in engaging. That's fine. Moving on!

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[Edited 9/20/19 14:39pm]



All i have to say is that in my approx. 20 years here you are one of the key people who insist on rearranging word definitions to fit your own needs while expecting whomever you're conversating with to maintain certain guidelines in their own belief. You may call that kind of behavior anything you want. I call it forceful and a few other things, including completely unproductive.
If you carry the egg basket do not dance.

Do good, then throw it into the sea.

#octavia tried to tell us
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Reply #124 posted 09/22/19 5:13am

maplenpg

avatar

toejam said:

Mapenpg, I hear what you're saying, but I have a slightly different view of things. Firstly, I am not advocating "forcing" anyone to believe against their will. But at the same time I believe it is a moral responsibility to help those lost in superstitious beliefs to overcome them - particularly superstitious beliefs that can be all-encroaching on one's life, as Islam can be to many Muslims. There are better reasons for thinking that Allah is just a superstition than that he is real and that he wants you to pray 5 times a day and has strict dietary, ritual and sexual requirements (etc.) of you. To withhold these reasons because you think their superstition brings them hope, joy, peace, etc., is understandable (and it's an issue I do wrestle over in my head) but at the same time I wonder if withholding such reasons underestimates them as people. Most ex-Muslims I know (my fiance and several of her family are) do not equate their loss of faith in Allah as coinciding with a loss of hope, joy, peace, etc. Indeed, most feel much more at peace than they did prior.

Re the bold. I completely disagree. I see it as my responsibility to live my life as a person who accepts others for who they are, regardless of race, religion, age, sexuality etc...etc... I have a moral responsibility to my children to show them a path of peace and unity rather than one of division, and I would have absolutely no business trying to 're-educate' my Muslim friends, just as they have no interest in 'educating' me. I am happy to be fish food when I die (I hope to be thrown in the sea), I don't want more than that. I accept others find peace in hoping for more after they no longer exist on this earth. Nothing wrong with that either.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #125 posted 09/22/19 3:12pm

toejam

avatar

maplenpg said:

Re the bold. I completely disagree. I see it as my responsibility to live my life as a person who accepts others for who they are, regardless of race, religion, age, sexuality etc...etc... I have a moral responsibility to my children to show them a path of peace and unity rather than one of division, and I would have absolutely no business trying to 're-educate' my Muslim friends, just as they have no interest in 'educating' me. I am happy to be fish food when I die (I hope to be thrown in the sea), I don't want more than that. I accept others find peace in hoping for more after they no longer exist on this earth. Nothing wrong with that either.

.

Again, I totally hear you. But let me use an analogy: If you're believing something superstitious, would you not want someone to help you see through it, to help you recognise it as a superstition? I know I would. If I believe something for which there are better reasons to think otherwise, I want someone to come and educate me and show me those reasons. I don't want someone to look at me and think, "Well, toejam believes in a superstition, but it would be impolite of me to help him". Nah, I'd rather someone think,"Wow, toejam believes in this superstition, let's help him out of it!". I very much thank the people in my life who have corrected me on things I used to believe that I can now see were incorrect - be they religious beliefs or otherwise. I care very much about trying to get my internal model of reality as close to matching reality as possible. But I need the wisdom of others to help me to do that. We all do. And that is why it's important to engage in conversations about the truthfulness or otherwise of religious claims - or any claims about the nature of reality, for that matter!
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So if someone believes that Allah exists and is watching their every move, and has strict rules and rituals that encroach on virtually every aspect of one's life, and the punishment for not following well enough being an eternity of suffering in hell, then I think it is important for those who can see through this superstition to engage with believers in conversation. Superstitious beliefs should be exposed for what they are. Like I said, most ex-Muslims I know do not equate their loss of faith in Allah as coinciding with a loss of hope, joy, peace, etc. Indeed, most feel much more at peace than they did prior (at least those who live in places around the world in which non-belief in Allah does not cause them to be shunned by society).
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[Edited 9/22/19 15:25pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #126 posted 09/22/19 4:28pm

poppys

bored

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #127 posted 09/22/19 6:26pm

IanRG

toejam said:

maplenpg said:

Re the bold. I completely disagree. I see it as my responsibility to live my life as a person who accepts others for who they are, regardless of race, religion, age, sexuality etc...etc... I have a moral responsibility to my children to show them a path of peace and unity rather than one of division, and I would have absolutely no business trying to 're-educate' my Muslim friends, just as they have no interest in 'educating' me. I am happy to be fish food when I die (I hope to be thrown in the sea), I don't want more than that. I accept others find peace in hoping for more after they no longer exist on this earth. Nothing wrong with that either.

.

Again, I totally hear you. But let me use an analogy: If you're believing something superstitious, would you not want someone to help you see through it, to help you recognise it as a superstition? I know I would. If I believe something for which there are better reasons to think otherwise, I want someone to come and educate me and show me those reasons. I don't want someone to look at me and think, "Well, toejam believes in a superstition, but it would be impolite of me to help him". Nah, I'd rather someone think,"Wow, toejam believes in this superstition, let's help him out of it!". I very much thank the people in my life who have corrected me on things I used to believe that I can now see were incorrect - be they religious beliefs or otherwise. I care very much about trying to get my internal model of reality as close to matching reality as possible. But I need the wisdom of others to help me to do that. We all do. And that is why it's important to engage in conversations about the truthfulness or otherwise of religious claims - or any claims about the nature of reality, for that matter!
.
So if someone believes that Allah exists and is watching their every move, and has strict rules and rituals that encroach on virtually every aspect of one's life, and the punishment for not following well enough being an eternity of suffering in hell, then I think it is important for those who can see through this superstition to engage with believers in conversation. Superstitious beliefs should be exposed for what they are. Like I said, most ex-Muslims I know do not equate their loss of faith in Allah as coinciding with a loss of hope, joy, peace, etc. Indeed, most feel much more at peace than they did prior (at least those who live in places around the world in which non-belief in Allah does not cause them to be shunned by society).

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God save us from those seeking to convert us all to their blind faith. So much evil has been done by people who think all other peoples will be better off if they just abandoned their beliefs and ways to follow that person's beliefs and ways.

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You don't listen when people discuss the wisdom behind their beliefs because you have pre-determined your beliefs are superior before you started your "research" and before you posted here. Also, no one listens to what you imagine is a better reason because you use mockery, strawmen, tricks, semantics and wordplay backed up by appeals to authority. You ignore the wisdom of others based on if they disagree with you.

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It is a circular argument to say you care very much about trying to get your internal model of reality as close to matching reality as possible. Everyone does this because everyone only sees actuality in line with their version of reality and everyone improves their understanding of their reality all their lives.

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You have demonstrated before that your approach to truthfullness is partisan: When you paid to get access a private forum by Bart Erhman for proof of his false claim, he gave you an academic lie - one that would fail an undergraduate in a paper and result in disciplinary action in a post grad paper or research: he falsified a reference. You did not check his false reference, but I did when you proudly reported he gave you a reference. You went back to him with what I found and you just accepted his excuse that it does not matter, it is all guess work anyway. It was not guesswork, it was a made up lie that was crucial to justifying his new false claim. Everytime I point this out, you ignore seeking wisdom and just accuse me of smearing.

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If Allah is as described above and you convince people to abandon Allah, then you have condemned them to hell based only on your proofless faith that this is just a superstition. How happy will they be if you are wrong? Because there is no way you can prove that you are right.

[Edited 9/22/19 18:37pm]

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Reply #128 posted 09/23/19 3:10am

maplenpg

avatar

toejam said:

maplenpg said:

Re the bold. I completely disagree. I see it as my responsibility to live my life as a person who accepts others for who they are, regardless of race, religion, age, sexuality etc...etc... I have a moral responsibility to my children to show them a path of peace and unity rather than one of division, and I would have absolutely no business trying to 're-educate' my Muslim friends, just as they have no interest in 'educating' me. I am happy to be fish food when I die (I hope to be thrown in the sea), I don't want more than that. I accept others find peace in hoping for more after they no longer exist on this earth. Nothing wrong with that either.

.

Again, I totally hear you. But let me use an analogy: If you're believing something superstitious, would you not want someone to help you see through it, to help you recognise it as a superstition? I know I would. If I believe something for which there are better reasons to think otherwise, I want someone to come and educate me and show me those reasons. I don't want someone to look at me and think, "Well, toejam believes in a superstition, but it would be impolite of me to help him". Nah, I'd rather someone think,"Wow, toejam believes in this superstition, let's help him out of it!". I very much thank the people in my life who have corrected me on things I used to believe that I can now see were incorrect - be they religious beliefs or otherwise. I care very much about trying to get my internal model of reality as close to matching reality as possible. But I need the wisdom of others to help me to do that. We all do. And that is why it's important to engage in conversations about the truthfulness or otherwise of religious claims - or any claims about the nature of reality, for that matter!
.
So if someone believes that Allah exists and is watching their every move, and has strict rules and rituals that encroach on virtually every aspect of one's life, and the punishment for not following well enough being an eternity of suffering in hell, then I think it is important for those who can see through this superstition to engage with believers in conversation. Superstitious beliefs should be exposed for what they are. Like I said, most ex-Muslims I know do not equate their loss of faith in Allah as coinciding with a loss of hope, joy, peace, etc. Indeed, most feel much more at peace than they did prior (at least those who live in places around the world in which non-belief in Allah does not cause them to be shunned by society).
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[Edited 9/22/19 15:25pm]

I think if believing in something superstitious brings you joy and comfort, then who I am to try and crush that? Most religious people find peace and happiness in their faith so I keep out of their business.

But then again I'm not someone who preaches my own beliefs too much. Many on here will know I am very much concerned with animal welfare, and do not eat meat. Do I tell my family and friends all the realities of the farming and slaughter processes with no holds barred whenever they eat meat? No, it's their choice. I'm not going to tell them what to do. Where I do draw the line though is when people don't respect my beliefs back, and try to 'convert' me back to being a meat eater. No thanks, I'll leave you alone if you show the same respect for me.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #129 posted 09/23/19 6:09am

poppys

...and you convince people to abandon Allah, then you have condemned them to hell...

This is one of reasons I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I don't believe in hell, or original sin. Nor do I believe that unbaptized little babies or adults are going to hell, or limbo, or anything like that. Overreach on the part of human beings, none of us knows what happens when we die.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #130 posted 09/23/19 6:47am

maplenpg

avatar

poppys said:

...and you convince people to abandon Allah, then you have condemned them to hell...

This is one of reasons I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I don't believe in hell, or original sin. Nor do I believe that unbaptized little babies or adults are going to hell, or limbo, or anything like that. Overreach on the part of human beings, none of us knows what happens when we die.

Poppy, I agree with all of this. Just out of interest, do you believe in some form of heaven? Or just that anything is possible, we just don't know?

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #131 posted 09/23/19 7:20am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

God contains the world.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #132 posted 09/23/19 7:21am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Where did Prince's music come from?

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #133 posted 09/23/19 7:26am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

According to Atheists they'd prefer MLK be a hedge fund manager. lol

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #134 posted 09/23/19 7:58am

poppys

maplenpg said:

poppys said:

...and you convince people to abandon Allah, then you have condemned them to hell...

This is one of reasons I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I don't believe in hell, or original sin. Nor do I believe that unbaptized little babies or adults are going to hell, or limbo, or anything like that. Overreach on the part of human beings, none of us knows what happens when we die.


Poppy, I agree with all of this. Just out of interest, do you believe in some form of heaven? Or just that anything is possible, we just don't know?


Not really. Heaven is part of the (manmade) flip side of the hell theory. I have no idea where conciousness goes, or if we are aware of it when we die. I do feel a presence in life beyond our senses that I can loosely call God energy. But beyond that, I just don't know, it's all speculation.

One thing many organized religions do is try to motivate good behavior using guilt. I think people should strive to lead a moral life (as outlined in many religions) anyway. I have no problem with people who want that structure in their lives. Maybe it helps some who don't have a good moral compass (and churches are also social hubs, which is helpful). The dogma keeps me away.

The religion I was raised in (did not join) stresses just trying to do good. There is no absolution or map to forgiveness by a human church elder.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #135 posted 09/23/19 8:00am

poppys

2freaky4church1 said:

According to Atheists they'd prefer MLK be a hedge fund manager. lol


That is some kind of bullshit sentence you just strung together there. MLK was a nice touch.

"if you can't clap on the one, then don't clap at all"
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Reply #136 posted 09/23/19 8:05am

maplenpg

avatar

poppys said:

maplenpg said:


Poppy, I agree with all of this. Just out of interest, do you believe in some form of heaven? Or just that anything is possible, we just don't know?


Not really. Heaven is part of the (manmade) flip side of the hell theory. I have no idea where conciousness goes, or if we are aware of it when we die. I do feel a presence in life beyond our senses that I can loosely call God energy. But beyond that, I just don't know, it's all speculation.

One thing many organized religions do is try to motivate good behavior using guilt. I think people should strive to lead a moral life (as outlined in many religions) anyway. I have no problem with people who want that structure in their lives. Maybe it helps some who don't have a good moral compass (and churches are also social hubs, which is helpful). The dogma keeps me away.

The religion I was raised in (did not join) stresses just trying to do good. There is no absolution or map to forgiveness by a human church elder.

Thank you Poppy, that's really interesting.

The Org is my playground and y'all are my playmates.
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Reply #137 posted 09/23/19 11:03am

IanRG

poppys said:

...and you convince people to abandon Allah, then you have condemned them to hell...

This is one of reasons I do not subscribe to any organized religion. I don't believe in hell, or original sin. Nor do I believe that unbaptized little babies or adults are going to hell, or limbo, or anything like that. Overreach on the part of human beings, none of us knows what happens when we die.

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I struggle with people knowing that their view of a fire and brimstone vision of hell is exactly what it is like. I disagree that they know who (or at least what type of people) will be saved and why, just as much as I disagree with people like toejam. Both are evangelising their proofless faith in their view of reality as if it saves those poor deluded fools from themselves. Given none of us truly know what happens when we die and even within the major organised rreligions there are a range of views of what is heaven and what is hell, then all we can do is seek to be the best people we can on Earth and see what happens. If that means a person follows the Two Great Commandments, the Eightfold Path, the Five Pillars or even Bill and Ted's Be Excellent to Each Other, then not only have you done your best here but, I pray, you have done your best for what is next.

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In this you are taking what I said out of context: The lead in and conclusion to that comment is important to understand what I was saying. This was that if the people toejam is trying to re-educate to his beliefs were already sufficiently more correct in their beliefs before toejam converted them and as a result of his re-education they subsequently fail to achieve what they were on the path to achieving, then his conversion has taken them off the path. Toejam has no more idea than anyone else whether his religion is more correct than anyone else's and his "religion" is limited to his faith that everyone who disagrees with him is deluded by superstitions and would praise him for saving them. All I did was apply this to his analogy based on people being thankful for him saving Muslims from their belief that "the punishment for not following well enough [the teachings from Allah] being an eternity of suffering in hell". The consequences of overreach apply whenever a person seeks to save people by imposing their proofless faith on what happens when we die on others.

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All we should ever do is discuss our beliefs and exchange why we believe what we believe and, in doing so, seek to encourage the sharing of understanding. When people do this they will find the common ground and consider and accept their differences as equals. This may change how individuals believe but it will not be an imposed re-education and will not create a sinlge view on God and religion but it will be for the better. This sharing unites people and causes people to reconsider the level of importance placed on fears of what if a child dies before it able to be baptised (as if they know God will punish that baby), or if the Theravada monk's robes have one shoulder or two, or if you miss a ritual prayer or break a fasting rule.

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Reply #138 posted 09/23/19 5:21pm

toejam

avatar

maplenpg said:
I think if believing in something superstitious brings you joy and comfort, then who I am to try and crush that? Most religious people find peace and happiness in their faith so I keep out of their business.

But then again I'm not someone who preaches my own beliefs too much. Many on here will know I am very much concerned with animal welfare, and do not eat meat. Do I tell my family and friends all the realities of the farming and slaughter processes with no holds barred whenever they eat meat? No, it's their choice. I'm not going to tell them what to do. Where I do draw the line though is when people don't respect my beliefs back, and try to 'convert' me back to being a meat eater. No thanks, I'll leave you alone if you show the same respect for me.

.

Of course it's all about context and the extremity of the superstitious belief in question. I don't go around door knocking and asking randoms, "Hey, have you realised that the story of Jesus' virgin birth is just ancient propaganda?" lol. Similarly, I never discuss these things with work colleges during lunch breaks even if I know they are practicing Christians or Muslims, etc. There is a time and a place. And an open thread on religion in a 'Politics & Religion' forum is surely an appropriate time and place to point out that there probably isn't a hell, that the 'empty tomb' is hardly a rock solid historical fact, that the premises of the Trinity create an illogicality, and that neither the Bible nor the Koran required divine revelation for their content, etc.

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I think the notion that we shouldn't help someone out of a superstitious belief because we think it brings them joy and comfort can sometimes overlook the harm the superstition might be causing them and their community in other aspects of their life. It can also underestimate their ability to reason. For Muslims in many Middle Eastern countries and towns, the rules and rituals believed to be expected of you from Allah can be very burdensome. My fiance, for example, used to believe she had to pray five times a day (often at some ungodly hour), wear certain thick clothes that covered her entire body when she went out in public (often on 50°C (122°F) days), she would feel a tremendous sense of guilt if she felt she didn't keep her studies of the Koran up to scratch or caved and sneakily drank some water from the bathroom tap during a time in which she was supposed to be fasting, and she worried about the torturous fate of those whom Allah would decide are not worthy. And she believed that questioning these things was a scandalous thing to do.

.

If everyone just sat back and said "Well, we shouldn't intervene, it's their business", what a sad state of affairs that would be! Thankfully, her older brother (who had lost faith in Allah years prior but kept it secret from his family) began to help some of his closer siblings, including my now-fiance, in private. Several of the family are atheists now, though most in secret. Thankfully the ones who live outside of the Middle East are able to live their lives peacefully without being ostracised for thinking that Allah is a superstition. Those still in the Middle East, however, struggle to keep this thought hidden in a society in which thinking so is deemed a moral failure. They would be severly shunned if it were revealed. But hey, it brings the others peace and joy! wink
.
For us on the outside, it's very easy to see the superstitiousness of this form of Islam. Open discussion and pointing out the better reasons why Allah is just a superstition should be allowed to occur. If it can't occur here in 'the West' out of fear of offence, how on Earth will it occur in places like rural towns in the Middle East? I totally understand the live-and-let-live notion that we shouldn't try to impose our beliefs on others. But at the same time there is also the opposite danger that if we don't have these conversations we are effectively allowing people to live superstitious lives while withholding the reasons why they are superstitions from them. There is the danger for a superiority complex there too - "Oh, we don't need to believe in Allah to have peace and joy in our lives, but they do. Let's not take that away from them!". I think such a notion underestimates them as thinking people.
.

[Edited 9/23/19 17:39pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #139 posted 09/23/19 5:55pm

JoeyC

avatar

poppys said:

maplenpg said:


Poppy, I agree with all of this. Just out of interest, do you believe in some form of heaven? Or just that anything is possible, we just don't know?


Not really. Heaven is part of the (manmade) flip side of the hell theory. I have no idea where conciousness goes, or if we are aware of it when we die. I do feel a presence in life beyond our senses that I can loosely call God energy. But beyond that, I just don't know, it's all speculation.

One thing many organized religions do is try to motivate good behavior using guilt. I think people should strive to lead a moral life (as outlined in many religions) anyway. I have no problem with people who want that structure in their lives. Maybe it helps some who don't have a good moral compass (and churches are also social hubs, which is helpful). The dogma keeps me away.

The religion I was raised in (did not join) stresses just trying to do good. There is no absolution or map to forgiveness by a human church elder.



Good stuff ! Especially(for me personally) the 'presence' part. hmmm thumbs up!

Rest in Peace Bettie Boo. See u soon.
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Reply #140 posted 09/23/19 5:59pm

toejam

avatar

^The evidence would suggest that your consciousness doesn't "go" anywhere when you die. It simply ceases to be produced. Where does our consciousness "go" when we're in a deep sleep, or when someone is in a coma, etc.? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to be produced. Our brain produces our consciousness. So when the brain no longer exists, our consciousness doesn't either. That would be the most logical conclusion as far as I can see.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #141 posted 09/23/19 7:14pm

IanRG

toejam said:

maplenpg said:
I think if believing in something superstitious brings you joy and comfort, then who I am to try and crush that? Most religious people find peace and happiness in their faith so I keep out of their business.

But then again I'm not someone who preaches my own beliefs too much. Many on here will know I am very much concerned with animal welfare, and do not eat meat. Do I tell my family and friends all the realities of the farming and slaughter processes with no holds barred whenever they eat meat? No, it's their choice. I'm not going to tell them what to do. Where I do draw the line though is when people don't respect my beliefs back, and try to 'convert' me back to being a meat eater. No thanks, I'll leave you alone if you show the same respect for me.

.

Of course it's all about context and the extremity of the superstitious belief in question. I don't go around door knocking and asking randoms, "Hey, have you realised that the story of Jesus' virgin birth is just ancient propaganda?" lol. Similarly, I never discuss these things with work colleges during lunch breaks even if I know they are practicing Christians or Muslims, etc. There is a time and a place. And an open thread on religion in a 'Politics & Religion' forum is surely an appropriate time and place to point out that there probably isn't a hell, that the 'empty tomb' is hardly a rock solid historical fact, that the premises of the Trinity create an illogicality, and that neither the Bible nor the Koran required divine revelation for their content, etc.

.

I think the notion that we shouldn't help someone out of a superstitious belief because we think it brings them joy and comfort can sometimes overlook the harm the superstition might be causing them and their community in other aspects of their life. It can also underestimate their ability to reason. For Muslims in many Middle Eastern countries and towns, the rules and rituals believed to be expected of you from Allah can be very burdensome. My fiance, for example, used to believe she had to pray five times a day (often at some ungodly hour), wear certain thick clothes that covered her entire body when she went out in public (often on 50°C (122°F) days), she would feel a tremendous sense of guilt if she felt she didn't keep her studies of the Koran up to scratch or caved and sneakily drank some water from the bathroom tap during a time in which she was supposed to be fasting, and she worried about the torturous fate of those whom Allah would decide are not worthy. And she believed that questioning these things was a scandalous thing to do.

.

If everyone just sat back and said "Well, we shouldn't intervene, it's their business", what a sad state of affairs that would be! Thankfully, her older brother (who had lost faith in Allah years prior but kept it secret from his family) began to help some of his closer siblings, including my now-fiance, in private. Several of the family are atheists now, though most in secret. Thankfully the ones who live outside of the Middle East are able to live their lives peacefully without being ostracised for thinking that Allah is a superstition. Those still in the Middle East, however, struggle to keep this thought hidden in a society in which thinking so is deemed a moral failure. They would be severly shunned if it were revealed. But hey, it brings the others peace and joy! wink
.
For us on the outside, it's very easy to see the superstitiousness of this form of Islam. Open discussion and pointing out the better reasons why Allah is just a superstition should be allowed to occur. If it can't occur here in 'the West' out of fear of offence, how on Earth will it occur in places like rural towns in the Middle East? I totally understand the live-and-let-live notion that we shouldn't try to impose our beliefs on others. But at the same time there is also the opposite danger that if we don't have these conversations we are effectively allowing people to live superstitious lives while withholding the reasons why they are superstitions from them. There is the danger for a superiority complex there too - "Oh, we don't need to believe in Allah to have peace and joy in our lives, but they do. Let's not take that away from them!". I think such a notion underestimates them as thinking people.
.

[Edited 9/23/19 17:39pm]

.

You have succeeded yet again. The topic is toejam's beliefs and not the OP.

.

Trolling several internet forums around the world as you do to evangelise your proofless faith is 21st century equivalent of the door knocker or the person who seeks to convert their workmates.

.

You have not answered what if you are wrong and God exists so you are not talking people out of superstitions but out of belief in the existence of something that actually exists? How do you reconcile your acts that may prevent them from continuing to achieve what is possible?

.

You have not answered why your truth and reality is superior to everyone else's. This is an important question because we have all seen your blind acceptance of, and reliance on appeals to authority and that you think you can win by mocking, tricking and semantic wordplay.

.

The West has a long and horrible history of practicing white man's burden to re-educate the masses so they accept your beliefs. God save us from people who think they are doing good by seeking to change everyone else's beliefs so they match theirs. You are seeking to perpetuate the evils done by people who think it is their moral obligation to make others believe as they do and then hide behind the claim that they will be happier and better people if they are more like them. This is a key cause of the worst types of racism seen on Earth. It is the type of thinking that led to the Khmer Rouge re-educating the Cambodian people in Chhanam saun (Year Zero) which killed nearly a quarter of their population - This atheist extremism started with the belief that people will be better off if they just agreed with Pol Pot's beliefs.

.

PS: Do you know how arrogant it is to assume that highly educated and thinking followers of Islam are all just in need of some toejam re-education so they can see the light and it is underestimating them if you don't agree with toejam by believing this?

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Reply #142 posted 09/23/19 7:29pm

JoeyC

avatar

toejam said:

^The evidence would suggest that your consciousness doesn't "go" anywhere when you die. It simply ceases to be produced. Where does our consciousness "go" when we're in a deep sleep, or when someone is in a coma, etc.? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to be produced. Our brain produces our consciousness. So when the brain no longer exists, our consciousness doesn't either. That would be the most logical conclusion as far as I can see.


I
hear what you're saying, and you very well could be right. However, i choose to believe that, in some form, consciousness(or spirit, or soul) does survive death of the body. l also believe that there is a intelligent design to all of this. And, i choose(for the time being) to call that intelligence, God. Shoot though, for all i know, God could be an alien...


As far as religion? I consider myself a Christian. One thing about that though. If i ever lose what little faith i do have left in the christian church, it will be because of what Christians do. And not because of anything that non believers do, or say(about the church). AND, just short of absolute proof that Jesus never existed, i can't see myself abandoning my belief in Christ.

Anyways, as I've said before(as it relates to my spiritual and religious beliefs), that's my story, and I'm sticking to it... peace

Rest in Peace Bettie Boo. See u soon.
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Reply #143 posted 09/23/19 7:54pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

toejam said:

^The evidence would suggest that your consciousness doesn't "go" anywhere when you die. It simply ceases to be produced. Where does our consciousness "go" when we're in a deep sleep, or when someone is in a coma, etc.? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to be produced. Our brain produces our consciousness. So when the brain no longer exists, our consciousness doesn't either. That would be the most logical conclusion as far as I can see.

Does our consciousness cease to 'be produced', when we are sleeping? Are we dormant when sleeping?

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Reply #144 posted 09/23/19 8:36pm

IanRG

OldFriends4Sale said:

toejam said:

^The evidence would suggest that your consciousness doesn't "go" anywhere when you die. It simply ceases to be produced. Where does our consciousness "go" when we're in a deep sleep, or when someone is in a coma, etc.? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to be produced. Our brain produces our consciousness. So when the brain no longer exists, our consciousness doesn't either. That would be the most logical conclusion as far as I can see.

Does our consciousness cease to 'be produced', when we are sleeping? Are we dormant when sleeping?

.

I think this crossing purposes - on the spectrum of states of consciousness sleep, especially deep sleep is "unconscious" - this has for a long time been considered more of a different state of conciousness than having no conciousness when you are unconscious. However, I think JoeyC is talking about a person's self, spirit etc.

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Reply #145 posted 09/23/19 9:43pm

toejam

avatar

JoeyC said:
I hear what you're saying, and you very well could be right. However, i choose to believe that, in some form, consciousness(or spirit, or soul) does survive death of the body. l also believe that there is a intelligent design to all of this. And, i choose(for the time being) to call that intelligence, God. Shoot though, for all i know, God could be an alien...

.

As far as religion? I consider myself a Christian. One thing about that though. If i ever lose what little faith i do have left in the christian church, it will be because of what Christians do. And not because of anything that non believers do, or say(about the church). AND, just short of absolute proof that Jesus never existed, i can't see myself abandoning my belief in Christ.
.
Anyways, as I've said before(as it relates to my spiritual and religious beliefs), that's my story, and I'm sticking to it... peace

.

Why do you choose to believe that consciousness survives after death? Do you choose it because it is comforting, or because the evidence favors it? If the latter, what evidence? Is believing something on the basis of personal preference ever a good reason when it comes to trying to fathom the nature of reality?
.
Do you choose to believe that things like natural disasters and birth defects have similarly been "intelligently designed"? How do you tell the difference between what has and hasn't been designed by a higher intelligence? Is it all part of God's plan when a tsunami kills 300,000 unsuspecting folk in a single swoop or when a child is born with Pfeiffer's syndrome?

.
I think determining whether Christianity is true or not by looking at what Christians do or don't do isn't a sound methodology for determining such a thing. It doesn't matter what they do. They might be the most selfless and loving people on the planet or the most arrogant selfish pricks. Neither would make any difference as to whether Christianity's core claims about the state of reality are true (in my my experience, and I presume yours too, you will find Christians at both ends and everywhere in between that spectrum).
.
I also think requiring practical proof that Jesus never existed is an unnecessarily high bar for giving up on Christianity. To me, that would be like a Mormon stating that it would require practical proof that Joseph Smith didn't exist in order to give up on the superstition that is Mormonism. There are plenty of reasons to recognise Mormonism as a superstition without having to prove its founder didn't exist. Same goes for Christianity, in my opinion. Most former Christians I know, including myself, think there was at least a guy - some Jewish preacher named Jesus who got crucified. Christianity is more than the belief that there was a guy. You should give up on Christianity (or any religion of belief for that matter) once you fail to see the evidence for it as compelling to a degree of probable.

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #146 posted 09/23/19 9:51pm

toejam

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:
Does our consciousness cease to 'be produced', when we are sleeping? Are we dormant when sleeping?

.

Seems to me it does. There are moments in our sleep when our consciousness is not really aware of anything. Of course the brain is functioning enough to keep vital organs and functions operating (like breathing, etc.), but we are no longer aware of ourselves or thinking anything specific. We are not conscious in those moments. Perhaps a better analogy might be when you're put under heavy anesthetic for a major operation. The few times I've been under, I don't recall being aware during that time. Similarly with patients who have awoken from a coma. They occasionally describe brief moments of being aware (and the terror of realisation that they can't move), but for the most part they describe not being aware of anything.
.

[Edited 9/23/19 21:52pm]

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #147 posted 09/23/19 9:51pm

IanRG

toejam said:

JoeyC said:
I hear what you're saying, and you very well could be right. However, i choose to believe that, in some form, consciousness(or spirit, or soul) does survive death of the body. l also believe that there is a intelligent design to all of this. And, i choose(for the time being) to call that intelligence, God. Shoot though, for all i know, God could be an alien...

.

As far as religion? I consider myself a Christian. One thing about that though. If i ever lose what little faith i do have left in the christian church, it will be because of what Christians do. And not because of anything that non believers do, or say(about the church). AND, just short of absolute proof that Jesus never existed, i can't see myself abandoning my belief in Christ.
.
Anyways, as I've said before(as it relates to my spiritual and religious beliefs), that's my story, and I'm sticking to it... peace

.

Why do you choose to believe that consciousness survives after death? Do you choose it because it is comforting, or because the evidence favors it? If the latter, what evidence? Is believing something on the basis of personal preference ever a good reason when it comes to trying to fathom the nature of reality?
.
Do you choose to believe that things like natural disasters and birth defects have similarly been "intelligently designed"? How do you tell the difference between what has and hasn't been designed by a higher intelligence? Is it all part of God's plan when a tsunami kills 300,000 unsuspecting folk in a single swoop or when a child is born with Pfeiffer's syndrome?

.
I think determining whether Christianity is true or not by looking at what Christians do or don't do isn't a sound methodology for determining such a thing. It doesn't matter what they do. They might be the most selfless and loving people on the planet or the most arrogant selfish pricks. Neither would make any difference as to whether Christianity's core claims about the state of reality are true (in my my experience, and I presume yours too, you will find Christians at both ends and everywhere in between that spectrum).
.
I also think requiring practical proof that Jesus never existed is an unnecessarily high bar for giving up on Christianity. To me, that would be like a Mormon stating that it would require practical proof that Joseph Smith didn't exist in order to give up on the superstition that is Mormonism. There are plenty of reasons to recognise Mormonism as a superstition without having to prove its founder didn't exist. Same goes for Christianity, in my opinion. Most former Christians I know, including myself, think there was at least a guy - some Jewish preacher named Jesus who got crucified. Christianity is more than the belief that there was a guy. You should give up on Christianity (or any religion of belief for that matter) once you fail to see the evidence for it as compelling to a degree of probable.

.

All of which has what to do with the topic?

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Reply #148 posted 09/23/19 9:55pm

IanRG

toejam said:

OldFriends4Sale said:
Does our consciousness cease to 'be produced', when we are sleeping? Are we dormant when sleeping?

.

Seems to me it does. There are moments in our sleep when our consciousness is not really aware of anything. Of course the brain is functioning enough to keep vital organs and functions operating (like breathing, etc.), but we are no longer aware of ourselves or thinking anything specific. We are not conscious in those moments. Perhaps a better analogy might be when you're put under heavy anesthetic for a major operation. The few times I've been under, I don't recall being aware during that time. Similarly with patients who have awoken from a coma. They often describe brief moments of being aware (and the terror of realisation that they can't move), but for the most part are not aware of anything.

.

Whilst this has nothing to do with the topic: Recall has nothing to do with the brain only functioning on automatic when under anesthetic. Talk to any nurse and they will tell you about what the person says when they are under. When I was under I had a long conversation with my mother that I did not recall at all. You are still there, you just don't recall.

[Edited 9/23/19 22:01pm]

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Reply #149 posted 09/23/19 10:14pm

toejam

avatar

Fair point about recall, but you get my wider point - there are moments in our life in which we are not really aware of anything. I wasn't aware of anything before my brain came into existence, my brain produces my state of awareness in the here and now, and once my brain no longer exists, then my awareness should cease also.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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