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Reply #60 posted 09/16/19 12:30pm

RodeoSchro

OldFriends4Sale said:

RodeoSchro said:



I know lots of believers and I don't know any who think atheists or non-believers are bad persons simply because they do not believe. With exceptions like those idiots at the Westboro Baptist Church (who have actually picketed MY church and it was so sad/funny), I've not run across examples of Christians calling atheists "bad" just because of their atheism.

Sorry, but you'll have to point me to someone saying that you can't have a moral guideline or compass without the Bible. I will admit, I rarely read far into religious threads because they usually devolve into 1,000-foot deep discussions of Catholic-Secular points on which I am not qualified to join in, or honestly care anything about.

Look - bottom line is that no one ever convinces anyone to change their belief system on these threads. And I'm not trying to do that.

All I'm trying to do is let those who do not believe know that we Christians do not consider any kind of non-belief to be an indication of a character failing, so we'd sure like it if those who are under that mistaken assumption would accept that and quit with the name-calling and derision.

Do you remember the thread a few years back where the orgmember told believers to pray while looking in the mirror next time and we will find that we are not really talking to God but to ourselves?



No, don't remember that. I can see how some might see it that way, but it wouldn't apply if you were praying for things over which you had no control. For instance, if I was praying for someone I'd never met but had heard they needed help. Which I am sure all believers have done many, many times.

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Reply #61 posted 09/16/19 12:55pm

IanRG

BombSquad said:

IanRG said:

To sum it up, my starting point is God, what is your's

Flat Earth



my starting point concerning religion? easy: No God





[Edited 9/16/19 7:36am]

.

So your starting point is your beliefs about Gods. This leads you to your beliefs about the the religious scriptures. You cannot prove your belief but it colours all your interpretations. This is no different to anyone else.

.

The key difference is you seek to evangelise your unproven beliefs by reciting nonsense memes and by mocking people. This is intellectually moribund. It serves no purpose except as an example of why most non-believers seek to distance themselves from these types of responses from the failed popularist movement known as New Atheism - Ironically it was from within this movement that the term "meme" came from. It is a derogatory term to mock others for the perceived lack of substance in their beliefs. It asserts that the meme sustains itself without substance or critical thought by the reciters of the memes. And, now memes are your primary tools.

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Reply #62 posted 09/16/19 1:06pm

IanRG

poppys said:

RodeoSchro said:



Good point.

I do tend to lump non-believers and atheists into the same category but for the purposes of this thread, I am specifically referring to atheists. They are the ones who seem to lash out at Christians, whereas agnostics(?) usually don't.


Thank you for your reply. There are many of us who live moral lives and strive to do better without organized religion. Needing to know if there is a God in the the way most organized religions go about it, which is a lot about rules and doctrines, is just not an issue for some of us. Not everyone carries guilt for not joining a church. I don't have a need to accept Jesus or any other prophet in the way others do, that's all. Some people don't make art. Others can't not make art. It's a personal choice. Live and let live.

.

In the Australian Census before the most recent one we were given the choice between a few different terms for non-believers. Almost no non-believers chose the term "atheist". The analysis of why revealed that atheism is associated with popularist religious intolerance and regular attacks on people for their beliefs in social media etc. Most non believers chose non-believers to distance themselves from the intolerant atheists.

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Reply #63 posted 09/16/19 1:10pm

onlyforaminute

I think a lot of this started in college science classrooms which prompted educators of the atheist persuasion to write books on ideas that caught fire in the new internet age. For going on 20 years I've seen the exact same arguments used with the exact same wording. Im particular worn out on the word strawman it creeps into every single debate no matter what. But id have to admit I've seen quite a few with what id call modified christian views pop up around here stating things that sound as if they themselves own heaven and hell and are the final decision makers. Of course I've seen atheist try to force any Christian believer to argue points they don't have and then tell that believer they're not a true believer because they dont hold certain views based an a system the atheist has already said they dont believe in. Sometimes its no interest shown in what is believed but an argument just to argue. In the past it worked for me because I realized i had to step up my game in understanding what i truly believe and accept being comfortable with things I don't know and realize im not obligated to know answers to every single question all i need to to explain the reasons for my belief and leave it at that.
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Reply #64 posted 09/16/19 2:11pm

poppys

IanRG said:

poppys said:


Thank you for your reply. There are many of us who live moral lives and strive to do better without organized religion. Needing to know if there is a God in the the way most organized religions go about it, which is a lot about rules and doctrines, is just not an issue for some of us. Not everyone carries guilt for not joining a church. I don't have a need to accept Jesus or any other prophet in the way others do, that's all. Some people don't make art. Others can't not make art. It's a personal choice. Live and let live.

.

In the Australian Census before the most recent one we were given the choice between a few different terms for non-believers. Almost no non-believers chose the term "atheist". The analysis of why revealed that atheism is associated with popularist religious intolerance and regular attacks on people for their beliefs in social media etc. Most non believers chose non-believers to distance themselves from the intolerant atheists.


Interesting. I would add that some people may not consider themselves atheists or even non-believers. They might experience "God" as a life force, without the presence of a diety/dieties. None of the negative (non) labels actually fit the way they think/feel about their existance. I fall in that group.

Even the synonyms for atheist run the gamut from freethinker to nihilist.

atheist
NOUN
atheists (plural noun)
  1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
    "he is a committed atheist"

[Edited 9/16/19 15:39pm]

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Reply #65 posted 09/16/19 3:15pm

jjhunsecker

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What about those of us who believe there may be higher power, if not necessarily a "God", and also believe that there may be a metaphhysical plane- essentially a world beyond what we can witness with our senses- if not necessarily a "heaven". And that we have moved away from organized religion, seeing it too tied to politics and the various follies and foibles and prejudices of man ?



We do we fall in ?

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Reply #66 posted 09/16/19 3:29pm

2freaky4church
1

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jj, God is real.

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #67 posted 09/16/19 3:31pm

IanRG

jjhunsecker said:

What about those of us who believe there may be higher power, if not necessarily a "God", and also believe that there may be a metaphhysical plane- essentially a world beyond what we can witness with our senses- if not necessarily a "heaven". And that we have moved away from organized religion, seeing it too tied to politics and the various follies and foibles and prejudices of man ?



We do we fall in ?

.

A fellow human seeking to understand the how, what and why of our existance - each with our own individual way of forming views and potentials. And a person who struggles with the dichotomy between the ideals of human institutions and how they should act and the reality of human institutions and how they can end up acting.

.

Or simply safely within the spectrum of us all, probably agnostic.

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Reply #68 posted 09/16/19 4:04pm

jjhunsecker

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2freaky4church1 said:

jj, God is real.



That's YOUR belief, and I respect that.
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Reply #69 posted 09/16/19 4:29pm

IanRG

jjhunsecker said:

2freaky4church1 said:

jj, God is real.

That's YOUR belief, and I respect that.

.

Well, technically, God's existence is independent of any one's beliefs.

.

And, equally, if God is not real this is independent of whether any one has a belief that God is real.

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Reply #70 posted 09/16/19 4:33pm

poppys

IanRG said:

2freaky4church1 said:

jj, God is real.



jjhunsecker said:

2freaky4church1 said: That's YOUR belief, and I respect that.

.

Well, technically, God's existence is independent of any one's beliefs.

.

And, equally, if God is not real this is independent of whether any one has a belief that God is real.


But, for the sake of communication, 2 freaky said that BECAUSE of his belief.

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Reply #71 posted 09/16/19 5:16pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

jjhunsecker said:

What about those of us who believe there may be higher power, if not necessarily a "God", and also believe that there may be a metaphhysical plane- essentially a world beyond what we can witness with our senses- if not necessarily a "heaven". And that we have moved away from organized religion, seeing it too tied to politics and the various follies and foibles and prejudices of man ?



We do we fall in ?

You should explsin with that is.

All things among humans though are 'organized' in some way. tighly or loosely

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Reply #72 posted 09/16/19 5:21pm

IanRG

poppys said:

IanRG said:

Well, technically, God's existence is independent of any one's beliefs.

.

And, equally, if God is not real this is independent of whether any one has a belief that God is real.


But, for the sake of communication, 2 freaky said that BECAUSE of his belief.

.

Agreed, but we have had conversations here that take a statement like 2Freaky's and argue God is creation of the human's mind.

.

My comment was an actuality vs reality comment. God's actual existence is not based on different people's realities.

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Reply #73 posted 09/16/19 6:36pm

poppys

Definition of agnostic

1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

[Edited 9/16/19 19:52pm]

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Reply #74 posted 09/17/19 12:00am

toejam

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jjhunsecker said:

What about those of us who believe there may be higher power, if not necessarily a "God", and also believe that there may be a metaphhysical plane- essentially a world beyond what we can witness with our senses- if not necessarily a "heaven". And that we have moved away from organized religion, seeing it too tied to politics and the various follies and foibles and prejudices of man ?



We do we fall in ?

.

Atheism is not the belief that there is nothing beyond what we can currently witness with our senses. Atheism is just a non-belief in God/s. Just ask yourself the question: Do I believe in God/s? If you answer "no" then you're an atheist. What you believe about metaphysics otherwise would really be a separate issue from theism vs. atheism. Personally, I believe there is more to the cosmos than we will probably ever know or suspect. But that doesn't mean illogical premises like the Trinitarian conception of God are somehow granted 'plausible' status.

.

[Edited 9/17/19 0:02am]

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Reply #75 posted 09/17/19 4:23am

poppys

toejam said:

jjhunsecker said:

What about those of us who believe there may be higher power, if not necessarily a "God", and also believe that there may be a metaphhysical plane- essentially a world beyond what we can witness with our senses- if not necessarily a "heaven". And that we have moved away from organized religion, seeing it too tied to politics and the various follies and foibles and prejudices of man ?



We do we fall in ?

.

Atheism is not the belief that there is nothing beyond what we can currently witness with our senses. Atheism is just a non-belief in God/s. Just ask yourself the question: Do I believe in God/s? If you answer "no" then you're an atheist. What you believe about metaphysics otherwise would really be a separate issue from theism vs. atheism. Personally, I believe there is more to the cosmos than we will probably ever know or suspect. But that doesn't mean illogical premises like the Trinitarian conception of God are somehow granted 'plausible' status.

.


You call the bolded atheism. But it fits the definition of agnostic, you are describing an ultimate reality. Adding that you find the "Trinitarian conception of God" illogical is your personal take on why you call yourself an atheist. It is not part of the definition, which is broader.

atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

agnostic -a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

Some want "believers" and "atheists" to fit in neat little boxes - they don't. I can accept that. The need to nail it down it down is a big part of the argument for some people, but it isn't a burning question for everybody.


[Edited 9/17/19 4:25am]

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Reply #76 posted 09/17/19 5:18am

toejam

avatar

poppys said:

toejam said:

.

Atheism is not the belief that there is nothing beyond what we can currently witness with our senses. Atheism is just a non-belief in God/s. Just ask yourself the question: Do I believe in God/s? If you answer "no" then you're an atheist. What you believe about metaphysics otherwise would really be a separate issue from theism vs. atheism. Personally, I believe there is more to the cosmos than we will probably ever know or suspect. But that doesn't mean illogical premises like the Trinitarian conception of God are somehow granted 'plausible' status.

.


You call the bolded atheism. But it fits the definition of agnostic, you are describing an ultimate reality. Adding that you find the "Trinitarian conception of God" illogical is your personal take on why you call yourself an atheist. It is not part of the definition, which is broader.

atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

agnostic -a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

Some want "believers" and "atheists" to fit in neat little boxes - they don't. I can accept that. The need to nail it down it down is a big part of the argument for some people, but it isn't a burning question for everybody.

.

I agree the definition of "God" is broader than simply the Trinitarian conception of God. I don't call myself an atheist because it's my "personal take" that the Trinitarian conception of God is illogical. I don't recall ever believing in the Trinity, but I used to believe there was a God. But now I don't believe in God/s. I think they are superstitions projected onto reality by human minds. That is where I see the evidence pointing (analogously like a child coming to realise that it makes better sense that the presents in his Christmas stocking are probably just from his folks and not from some red-suited, white-bearded, physics-defying wizard). That's why I call myself an atheist.
.
But that is not the same as believing there is nothing more to the cosmos than what our senses can detect. That's really a separate issue. Atheist Bob can have the same belief I do about the superstitiousness of God/s and think there is nothing beyond what we can detect with our senses. And Atheist Rob can have the same belief I do about the superstitiousness of God/s and think that there is something more to the cosmos than what we can detect with our senses. Neither Bob or Rob would be any less of an atheist - because the sole criteria for theism/atheism is regarding one's belief or otherwise in God/s - not about what they think about metaphysics otherwise.
.
[On a side note, the Trinitarian conception of God is illogical, however. It is not just my "personal take". It is as illogical as saying 1+1+1=1. If Jesus is fully God in his own right, and The Father is fully God in his own right, and Jesus is not The Father, then what you have there is two gods. It would be illogical to say that there is only one God under those premises. And yet that's what Orthodox Trinitarianism tries to do. And one doesn't have to be an atheist to recognise that.]
.

[Edited 9/17/19 5:52am]

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Reply #77 posted 09/17/19 6:17am

jjhunsecker

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:

jjhunsecker said:

What about those of us who believe there may be higher power, if not necessarily a "God", and also believe that there may be a metaphhysical plane- essentially a world beyond what we can witness with our senses- if not necessarily a "heaven". And that we have moved away from organized religion, seeing it too tied to politics and the various follies and foibles and prejudices of man ?



We do we fall in ?

You should explsin with that is.

All things among humans though are 'organized' in some way. tighly or loosely

Explain what what is ?

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Reply #78 posted 09/17/19 6:22am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

jjhunsecker said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

You should explsin with that is.

All things among humans though are 'organized' in some way. tighly or loosely

Explain what what is ?

Yes,

that is a very different thought of existence. There might even been a term for it.

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Reply #79 posted 09/17/19 6:36am

jjhunsecker

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I personally have pretty much walked away from organized religion. I feel that the structures are too hierarchical, and that they are just like any corporation, that they are out to protect their own when anything happens, instead of pursuing the ultimate higher power, which is the absolute truth. These beliefs camme about over the years as I witnessed the molestation scandals in my own religion, the Catholic church, how I saw and read how degenerate priests were shielded, and crimes covered up, by church officials. This really disillusioned me to the authority of organized religion. They are just men, like any other men....And I read about similar scandals in Protestant Churches (such as Re. Eddie Long, amongst others), and in NY in particular, numerous scandals involving Hassidic and Orthodox Jewish rabbis accused of molesting young people, and yet had their people still giving them unquestioning support.

But that's just me- I don't question the beliefs of faiths of others. Live and let live

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Reply #80 posted 09/17/19 6:46am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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jjhunsecker said:

I personally have pretty much walked away from organized religion. I feel that the structures are too hierarchical, and that they are just like any corporation, that they are out to protect their own when anything happens, instead of pursuing the ultimate higher power, which is the absolute truth. These beliefs camme about over the years as I witnessed the molestation scandals in my own religion, the Catholic church, how I saw and read how degenerate priests were shielded, and crimes covered up, by church officials. This really disillusioned me to the authority of organized religion. They are just men, like any other men....And I read about similar scandals in Protestant Churches (such as Re. Eddie Long, amongst others), and in NY in particular, numerous scandals involving Hassidic and Orthodox Jewish rabbis accused of molesting young people, and yet had their people still giving them unquestioning support.

But that's just me- I don't question the beliefs of faiths of others. Live and let live

Nuclear families and Ethnic cultures and race groups do the same things. What we see happen in larger religious organizations, political realms, places of learning, racial social political groups are usually a reflection of things that originated in families.

.

You've said this stuff before, you should explain further what you mean in post 65. Read Toejams pst #74

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Reply #81 posted 09/17/19 7:32am

poppys

toejam said:

poppys said:


You call the bolded atheism. But it fits the definition of agnostic, you are describing an ultimate reality. Adding that you find the "Trinitarian conception of God" illogical is your personal take on why you call yourself an atheist. It is not part of the definition, which is broader.

atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

agnostic -a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

Some want "believers" and "atheists" to fit in neat little boxes - they don't. I can accept that. The need to nail it down it down is a big part of the argument for some people, but it isn't a burning question for everybody.

.

I agree the definition of "God" is broader than simply the Trinitarian conception of God. I don't call myself an atheist because it's my "personal take" that the Trinitarian conception of God is illogical. I don't recall ever believing in the Trinity, but I used to believe there was a God. But now I don't believe in God/s. I think they are superstitions projected onto reality by human minds. That is where I see the evidence pointing (analogously like a child coming to realise that it makes better sense that the presents in his Christmas stocking are probably just from his folks and not from some red-suited, white-bearded, physics-defying wizard). That's why I call myself an atheist.
.
But that is not the same as believing there is nothing more to the cosmos than what our senses can detect. That's really a separate issue. Atheist Bob can have the same belief I do about the superstitiousness of God/s and think there is nothing beyond what we can detect with our senses. And Atheist Rob can have the same belief I do about the superstitiousness of God/s and think that there is something more to the cosmos than what we can detect with our senses. Neither Bob or Rob would be any less of an atheist - because the sole criteria for theism/atheism is regarding one's belief or otherwise in God/s - not about what they think about metaphysics otherwise.
.
[On a side note, the Trinitarian conception of God is illogical, however. It is not just my "personal take". It is as illogical as saying 1+1+1=1. If Jesus is fully God in his own right, and The Father is fully God in his own right, and Jesus is not The Father, then what you have there is two gods. It would be illogical to say that there is only one God under those premises. And yet that's what Orthodox Trinitarianism tries to do. And one doesn't have to be an atheist to recognise that.]
.


You are the one who said personally in the first place, not me. What you think is logical is your business. Whatever kind of atheist you define yourself as is fine with me. I don't have the desire to discuss minutiae. As I said, the fine point arguments of the existance of God(s) are not of that much interest to me. I think you have to argue that with people who care more about nailing it down than I do

My question regarding the OP was answered by Rodeo and Ian. It's not just believers and atheists. There are also agnostics, which is where I fall in the spectrum.

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Reply #82 posted 09/17/19 7:53am

poppys

jjhunsecker said:

I personally have pretty much walked away from organized religion. I feel that the structures are too hierarchical, and that they are just like any corporation, that they are out to protect their own when anything happens, instead of pursuing the ultimate higher power, which is the absolute truth. These beliefs camme about over the years as I witnessed the molestation scandals in my own religion, the Catholic church, how I saw and read how degenerate priests were shielded, and crimes covered up, by church officials. This really disillusioned me to the authority of organized religion. They are just men, like any other men....And I read about similar scandals in Protestant Churches (such as Re. Eddie Long, amongst others), and in NY in particular, numerous scandals involving Hassidic and Orthodox Jewish rabbis accused of molesting young people, and yet had their people still giving them unquestioning support.

But that's just me- I don't question the beliefs of faiths of others. Live and let live

Agree about the hierarchial structure and what it can create. Like you, I don't have a problem with the beliefs of others. But I do strongly support the separation of church and state, because of what some people are capable of. This was why my parents walked away, although they never told me, I found out many years later. I remember asking my dad (who taught adult Sunday school), if not going to church anymore was a conscious decision. He said yes but did not explain further.

[Edited 9/17/19 8:27am]

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Reply #83 posted 09/17/19 8:19am

jjhunsecker

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OldFriends4Sale said:



jjhunsecker said:


I personally have pretty much walked away from organized religion. I feel that the structures are too hierarchical, and that they are just like any corporation, that they are out to protect their own when anything happens, instead of pursuing the ultimate higher power, which is the absolute truth. These beliefs camme about over the years as I witnessed the molestation scandals in my own religion, the Catholic church, how I saw and read how degenerate priests were shielded, and crimes covered up, by church officials. This really disillusioned me to the authority of organized religion. They are just men, like any other men....And I read about similar scandals in Protestant Churches (such as Re. Eddie Long, amongst others), and in NY in particular, numerous scandals involving Hassidic and Orthodox Jewish rabbis accused of molesting young people, and yet had their people still giving them unquestioning support.



But that's just me- I don't question the beliefs of faiths of others. Live and let live




Nuclear families and Ethnic cultures and race groups do the same things. What we see happen in larger religious organizations, political realms, places of learning, racial social political groups are usually a reflection of things that originated in families.


.


You've said this stuff before, you should explain further what you mean in post 65. Read Toejams pst #74



But nuclear families and ethnic cultures aren't assumed to be "good " and "moral " because they are associated with "God" and "The Bible " like organized religion is .

Elsewise, I pretty much stated what I think and believe in my earlier posts
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Reply #84 posted 09/17/19 9:47am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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jjhunsecker said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Nuclear families and Ethnic cultures and race groups do the same things. What we see happen in larger religious organizations, political realms, places of learning, racial social political groups are usually a reflection of things that originated in families.

.

You've said this stuff before, you should explain further what you mean in post 65. Read Toejams pst #74

But nuclear families and ethnic cultures aren't assumed to be "good " and "moral " because they are associated with "God" and "The Bible " like organized religion is . Elsewise, I pretty much stated what I think and believe in my earlier posts

Actually nuclear families and ethnic cultures are assumed to be good. No one assumes they are bad things, or there would be none.
What happens out in the world, does start 'at home'
Religions come out of ethnic cultures.

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Reply #85 posted 09/17/19 10:28am

jaawwnn

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The nuclear family is a 20th century invention, for better or for worse or both. There's nothing natural, "ethnic" or historical about it. The assumption that they are "good", if such an assumption exists, is about 2 generations old.


[Edited 9/17/19 10:51am]

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Reply #86 posted 09/17/19 10:44am

onlyforaminute

A husband a wife and kids was only invented in the 20th century? Ok.
If you carry the egg basket do not dance.

Do good, then throw it into the sea.

#octavia tried to tell us
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Reply #87 posted 09/17/19 10:53am

jaawwnn

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onlyforaminute said:

A husband a wife and kids was only invented in the 20th century? Ok.

I should clarify for the pedants: the assumption that the nuclear family is the norm for the majority of (a) society was invented in the 20th century. The term, rather than the concept, itself was also invented in the 20th century. From this I would argue that the nuclear family is a 20th century invention.



[Edited 9/17/19 10:54am]

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Reply #88 posted 09/17/19 10:53am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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jaawwnn said:

The nuclear family is a 20th century invention, for better or for worse or both. There's nothing natural, "ethnic" or historical about it. The assumption that they are "good", if such an assumption exists, is about 2 generations old.


[Edited 9/17/19 10:51am]

Come on now

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER
https://www.youtube.com/w...bs57Kl3OOU
https://www.youtube.com/w...M0JN5IAD50
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #89 posted 09/17/19 10:57am

jaawwnn

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OldFriends4Sale said:

jaawwnn said:

The nuclear family is a 20th century invention, for better or for worse or both. There's nothing natural, "ethnic" or historical about it. The assumption that they are "good", if such an assumption exists, is about 2 generations old.


[Edited 9/17/19 10:51am]

Come on now

If you're going to argue massive galaxy-sized generalities like "Actually nuclear families and ethnic cultures are assumed to be good" then I see no issue with putting a tiny bit of pressure on your argument.

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