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Thread started 05/16/19 4:41am

IanRG

Vale Bob Hawke

Bob Hawke, Prime Minister of Australia from March 1983 to December 1991 died today. He was the third longest serving PM and the longest from his side of politics.

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He will be missed by many from all sides of politics because, unlike so many politicians today, he spoke and served for all, not just for his side.

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Reply #1 posted 05/18/19 9:28am

poppys

rose

I read this about him. Don't know if you consider it a good source or not. Says he ensured a universal healthcare system, among other protections. That he loved ordinary citizens and they loved him back.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2019/05/17/bob-hawke-obituary/

Vale Bob, co-founder of 21st-century Australia

You can divide Australian life into before Bob and after Bob. He was a unique politician who, with Paul Keating, created modern Australia.


Wondering what you think about newly elected Prime Minister Morrison? As I said, I know nothing about your politics but I read this short piece.

Australian Prime Minister Morrison's coalition surprisingly wins

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2019/05/18/Australian-Prime-Minister-Morrisons-coalition-surprisingly-wins/4161558188726/

[Edited 5/18/19 9:31am]

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Reply #2 posted 05/18/19 5:22pm

IanRG

poppys said:

rose

I read this about him. Don't know if you consider it a good source or not. Says he ensured a universal healthcare system, among other protections. That he loved ordinary citizens and they loved him back.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2019/05/17/bob-hawke-obituary/

Vale Bob, co-founder of 21st-century Australia

You can divide Australian life into before Bob and after Bob. He was a unique politician who, with Paul Keating, created modern Australia.


Wondering what you think about newly elected Prime Minister Morrison? As I said, I know nothing about your politics but I read this short piece.

Australian Prime Minister Morrison's coalition surprisingly wins

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2019/05/18/Australian-Prime-Minister-Morrisons-coalition-surprisingly-wins/4161558188726/

[Edited 5/18/19 9:31am]

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Crikey is one of my clients. As a source it is left leaning and popularist. It is one of our first and most successful online media outlets.

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In regards to ScoMo's (Scott Morrison's) victory: It is a shock and another failure of polling akin to Brexit and Trump - all the polls said ScoMo was going to lose and the question was only by how much. Since 2007 we have had 7 Prime Ministers with both major parties deliberately undermining leaders from their own party. This election was between the key "faceless" man (Shorten) from the ALP who undermined the ALP Prime Ministers and the "soft" Right Prime Minister (ScoMo) selected in the last leadership spill in LNP when the Conservatives and Moderates could not stop undermining each other's faction. Had Hawke' ALP had a different leader, I think they would have won.

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Reply #3 posted 05/18/19 5:57pm

poppys

IanRG said:

poppys said:

rose

I read this about him. Don't know if you consider it a good source or not. Says he ensured a universal healthcare system, among other protections. That he loved ordinary citizens and they loved him back.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2019/05/17/bob-hawke-obituary/

Vale Bob, co-founder of 21st-century Australia

You can divide Australian life into before Bob and after Bob. He was a unique politician who, with Paul Keating, created modern Australia.


Wondering what you think about newly elected Prime Minister Morrison? As I said, I know nothing about your politics but I read this short piece.

Australian Prime Minister Morrison's coalition surprisingly wins

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2019/05/18/Australian-Prime-Minister-Morrisons-coalition-surprisingly-wins/4161558188726/

.

Crikey is one of my clients. As a source it is left leaning and popularist. It is one of our first and most successful online media outlets.

.

In regards to ScoMo's (Scott Morrison's) victory: It is a shock and another failure of polling akin to Brexit and Trump - all the polls said ScoMo was going to lose and the question was only by how much. Since 2007 we have had 7 Prime Ministers with both major parties deliberately undermining leaders from their own party. This election was between the key "faceless" man (Shorten) from the ALP who undermined the ALP Prime Ministers and the "soft" Right Prime Minister (ScoMo) selected in the last leadership spill in LNP when the Conservatives and Moderates could not stop undermining each other's faction. Had Hawke' ALP had a different leader, I think they would have won.


Seven PM's in 12 years seems like a lot. All that undermining can't be good for the electorate. Interesting that accurate polling appears to be a thing of the past worldwide these days.

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Reply #4 posted 05/28/19 2:01am

hausofmoi7

avatar

Australian prime minister Bob Hawke “ if I were the Israeli prime minister I wouldn't give a damn about world morality - I would use the atomic bomb to protect my own'


Not only an unhinged tribalist and defender of racial supremacy and colonialism..
Bob Hawke also privatised many of Australia’s industries which created the inequality that exist today.
Bob Hawke also killed off Australia’s indegenious land rights movement. indegenious Australians never received thier land and instead Bob Hawke quietly dropped a political atomic bomb on those plans while still showing up at indegenious gatherings and festivals and giving lip service to a community who he saw as not his own or one of his.
That’s why he was loved by both sides of Australian politics (liberals and conservatives knew where his loyalty was at the end of the day)
Bob Hawke was Australia’s version of Bill Clinton. Neo-liberals bend over backwards to portray him as a godly figure.
the truth is actually more nuanced than they like to admit about Bob Hawke.
An unhinged atomic bomb loving larrikin who privatised the country and who supported corporations over indegenious land rights and sent Australia to the gulf war to support his “close friend” George Bush Snr.
Let’s be honest



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[Edited 5/28/19 3:16am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #5 posted 05/28/19 2:34am

hausofmoi7

avatar

“As his government's stocks declined Bob Hawke's personal popularity as leader soared when he took Australia into the First Gulf War in the Middle East.

He led his cabinet into an early commitment to support a US-led blockade of Iraq in August 1990 and three months later dispatched two more Australian guided missile vessels to the Persian Gulf.”

The cabinet was advised that the "situation in the Middle East has the potential to disrupt global economic activity" and it was a necessary campaign.

"But this was a case where people listened to argument and we had the advantage of the close personal relationship I had with George Bush snr," Mr Hawke told journalists and academics.



https://www.google.com.au...lq9w6.html



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[Edited 5/28/19 2:36am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #6 posted 05/28/19 2:54am

hausofmoi7

avatar

For those who want an honest overview and summary.

Bob Hawke: The PM who tamed the labour movement

https://www.greenleft.org...r-movement

Bob Hawke, Australia’s longest-serving Labor prime minister, died at his home in Sydney on May 16, aged 89.

The same night, former Liberal PM Tony Abbott caused a stir when he released a statement on Twitter, describing Hawke as a “great prime minister”. After listing what be believed to be Hawke's key achievements — “financial deregulation, tariff cuts and the beginning of privatisation” of major national public assets — Abbott went on to claim they “went against the Labor grain”.

“You might almost say he had a Labor heart, but a Liberal head,” Abbott said.


In addition to this, Hawke played a crucial role in “modernisation” of the Australian capitalist economy: tariff cuts, deregulation of the banks, and most disastrously of all, the privatisation of key public assets. The privatisation of the government airline Qantas and, most significantly, the Commonwealth Bank (CBA), established the basis for the accelerated neoliberal offensive launched under Coalition governments after 1996.

Perhaps the most critical of these privatisations in the long term was that of the CBA, which contributed in a major way to the profiteering, rip-offs and corruption of the Big Four banks, as revealed in the recent royal commission. Moreover, a publicly-owned CBA today, placed under workers’ and community control, could play a leading part in reviving the public sector, which has been devastated under both Coalition and Labor governments over the past three decades.

Hawke claimed to be a champion for Aboriginal land rights and a treaty. However, he backed down under pressure from the right wing and the mining corporations.

He overturned the Gough Whitlam Labor government’s free university education policy, and introduced tertiary fees in the late 1980s.

Hawke also sent Australian troops to join the US invasion of Iraq during the First Gulf War in 1990. He remained a loyal supporter of the US-Australia Alliance and a close friend of Israel throughout his career.

Bob Hawke played a critical role, along with Paul Keating, in the launching of the international neoliberal offensive in Australia during the 1980s, which has now reached its peak under the current Coalition regime. But perhaps his most damaging legacy is the taming of the trade union movement, which has had long-term serious consequences right up to this day.



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“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #7 posted 05/28/19 3:52am

poppys

Hawke = Ian proxy for Haus - cuz the other thread ain't goin too good. lol

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Reply #8 posted 05/28/19 4:07am

hausofmoi7

avatar

poppys said:

Hawke = Ian proxy for Haus - cuz the other thread ain't goin too good. lol



I was actually going to add in the other thread that Bob Hawke and the Labour Party of Australia are actually everything people accuse Nicholas Maduro and the bolivarian revolution of being. The more I wrote I realised there was even more about Bob Hawke and neo-liberalism that was problematic not only for international relations but for Australia itself and in this thread I could cover it all without going off topic completely.

Hawke is the Australian Bill Clinton.
He created the inequality we have today and sold the country out to corporations. He threw aboriginal people away after he used them for PR photo ops and to gain votes.
He birthed neo-liberalism and an era of supporting neo-colonialism around the world.
It’s the reason why Australia’s labour government won’t stand with Venezuela because Bob Hawke ushered in the era of corporation and lobbyists that dicates policy.
He supported Bush in the gulf war and rallied other countries to join in.
Australian unions and its members support the bolivarian revolution, the Labour Party however don’t and are backing the coup and sanctions against Venezuela.
the party is owned by corporations who have a vested interest in overthrowing that government.
A party that supports George Bush but not The Bolivarian revolution, that supports a coup in Venezuela but markets itself as liberal or progressive is a joke.
This is Australia.



But do you even have anything to add here? No?
At least have something Poppy, c’mon anything! lol





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[Edited 5/28/19 8:21am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #9 posted 05/28/19 8:33am

poppys

hausofmoi7 said:

poppys said:

Hawke = Ian proxy for Haus - cuz the other thread ain't goin too good. lol

I was actually going to add in the other thread that Bob Hawke and the Labour Party of Australia are actually everything people accuse Nicholas Maduro and the bolivarian revolution of being. The more I wrote I realised there was even more about Bob Hawke and neo-liberalism that was problematic not only for international relations but for Australia itself and in this thread I could cover it all without going off topic completely. Hawke is the Australian Bill Clinton. He created the inequality we have today and sold the country out to corporations. He threw aboriginal people away after he used them for PR photo ops and to gain votes. He birthed neo-liberalism and an era of supporting neo-colonialism around the world. It’s the reason why Australia’s labour government won’t stand with Venezuela because Bob Hawke ushered in the era of corporation and lobbyists that dicates policy. He supported Bush in the gulf war and rallied other countries to join in. Australian unions and its members support the bolivarian revolution, the Labour Party however don’t and are backing the coup and sanctions against Venezuela. the party is owned by corporations who have a vested interest in overthrowing that government. A party that supports George Bush but not The Bolivarian revolution, that supports a coup in Venezuela but markets itself as liberal or progressive is a joke. This is Australia.

But do you even have anything to add here? No? At least have something Poppy, c’mon anything! lol .


I was the only one who responded to this thread after it was posted over 2 weeks ago. Unlike some here, I don't weigh in on the politics of other countries unless I know what I am talking about or can give examples of what I read.


You know I agree with some of your overall views on world politics Haus. But you go off the deep end frequently with topic drift, wrong information, and overly long dense posts with no back up links. It's a jumble of opinion and often faulty rhetoric. Makes it hard to discern and debate.

My advice would be to pare it down and present a few points people can actually follow - unless you are just spewing. That would work better for a discussion.

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Reply #10 posted 05/28/19 1:50pm

IanRG

Wow, you don't get much more childish than this - You get caught out making up things to support a conspiracy theory yet again, you say storm off in huff complaining everyone is so unfair and you never want to talk to me again and, instead, you try to find a post that you previously ignored to seek to provoke me. Epic fail

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The thing is Bob Hawke is not my hero. All I said was he was much better at bringing people together than the current crop of politicans in Australia, USA and UK etc. I was honouring the passing of a great but far from perfect person. As an adult, I understand that I don't have to agree with everything a person did to respect them as a fellow human.

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Some of the criticisms of Bob Hawke from your highly biased media source, I agree with, some I don't.

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It is truly ironic that you cited studies of bias in media so that the articles favour the opinions and objectives of the owners and you then post an article by Green Left Weekly. To those people outside of Australia: The Green Left Weekly is not what it seems. It is not some activist environmentalist egalitarian on line newspaper run by the people for the people. The reason the article spends so much time on unions is the Green Left Weekly is an anti-Labor Party trade union paper. It is produced by the "Socialist Alliance", a collection of socialist organisations including the US aligned Socialist Workers Party. This was a party that was in direct combat with Bob Hawke because Bob Hawke was the leader of the Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU) before he entered Parliament. The ACTU is by far the largest peak body representing most trade unions in Australia and it has strong connections with the Australian Labor Party. The Socialist Alliance and the Socialist Workers Party before it represents the far left trade unions who seek to use the trade union movement and now green groups etc to undermine and overthrow Australian economic and political systems. Hardly surprising their obit on Bob Hawke focuses only on what it perceives as Hawke's negatives and it seeks to make him the cause of all that they consider evil today.

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I think the most telling thing you said is that the strongest criticism of Hawke you personally made (rather than just parrotting your biased media) is that Hawke can be seen as being like Maduro. There are few leaders anywhere in the world that have been as bad as Maduro and Hawke was not one of them.

[Edited 5/28/19 19:11pm]

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Reply #11 posted 05/28/19 3:46pm

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Australia bah

All you others say Hell Yea!! woot!
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Reply #12 posted 05/28/19 7:04pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Australia bah


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It is better than all the endless discussions on Trump and gun control and alike.
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Reply #13 posted 05/28/19 10:33pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

You’re not going to stop engaging me without being unfairly harsh and critical in ways you are not towards others and unnecessarily rude and condescending but I can’t be bothered right now.

War and sanctions are unacceptable regardless of what anyone thinks of any government because war and sanctions target civilians.


I think Maduro is more closer to a politician like Bernie Sanders than Hawke.
Maduro and Sanders from what I gather don’t necessarily like the system but work within it. (the elites in u.s and Venezuela are gunning for both sanders and Maduro)
Hawke on the other hand loved the system and thought it was great, much like Bill Clinton.
Also Maduro and Sanders view on foreign relations and war are much more similar.
Hawke was so rightwing that he and George Bush Snr we’re accomplices in war.


However for the sake of argument let’s say Maduro is like Bob Hawke.
Neither one is a dictator.
Both also won elections. Maduro under even harsher scrutiny than Hawke.
Maduro has large public support similar to Hawke (yes there are those in both countries that don’t like either of them but that can be said about any elected leader)
its completely ridiculous that the Labour Party of Australia are supporting a coup and sanctions to overthrow Maduro and claim he is an evil dictator.
If Maduro is an evil dictator then what on earth do we call Bob Hawke?

Push back against criticism of Maduro is not only because it is fabricated and are CIA lies. (You have not provided the source and link for the story you claim of Maduro attacking the poor. The poor in Venezuela actually make up 3-4 million strong civilian army that support Maduro)
The criticism is also used to muddy waters and create this state of confusion by making Maduro seem indefensible to justify the sanctions and a potential military invasion at some stage.
If people knew the truth about evil dictator Maduro they will be disappointed to find a figure not much different than many left wing western politicians.

I wouldn’t say Maduro and Hawke are similar, Maduro is to the left of Hawke. but we can go with that.






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[Edited 5/28/19 23:26pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #14 posted 05/29/19 12:07am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

You’re not going to stop engaging me without being unfairly harsh and critical in ways you are not towards others and unnecessarily rude and condescending but I can’t be bothered right now. War and sanctions are unacceptable regardless of what anyone thinks of any government because war and sanctions target civilians. I think Maduro is more closer to a politician like Bernie Sanders than Hawke. Maduro and Sanders from what I gather don’t necessarily like the system but work within it. (the elites in u.s and Venezuela are gunning for both sanders and Maduro) Hawke on the other hand loved the system and thought it was great, much like Bill Clinton. Also Maduro and Sanders view on foreign relations and war are much more similar. Hawke was so rightwing that he and George Bush Snr we’re accomplices in war. However for the sake of argument let’s say Maduro is like Bob Hawke. Neither one is a dictator. Both also won elections. Maduro under even harsher scrutiny than Hawke. Maduro has large public support similar to Hawke (yes there are those in both countries that don’t like either of them but that can be said about any elected leader) its completely ridiculous that the Labour Party of Australia are supporting a coup and sanctions to overthrow Maduro and claim he is an evil dictator. If Maduro is an evil dictator then what on earth do we call Bob Hawke? Push back against criticism of Maduro is not only because it is fabricated and are CIA lies. (You have not provided the source and link for the story you claim of Maduro attacking the poor. The poor in Venezuela actually make up 3-4 million strong civilian army that support Maduro) The criticism is also used to muddy waters and create this state of confusion by making Maduro seem indefensible to justify the sanctions and a potential military invasion at some stage. If people knew the truth about evil dictator Maduro they will be disappointed to find a figure not much different than many left wing western politicians. I wouldn’t say Maduro and Hawke are similar, Maduro is to the left of Hawke. but we can go with that. . [Edited 5/28/19 23:26pm]

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I did not start this thread to be yet another Haus of lies.

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This is just another Haus of lies because I gave you the source many times - It came through you - It was the full press release that your biased Green Left Weekly media outlet that is beholden to its masters only partly quoted to hide the complaints by real, actual socialists in Venezuela against the racist violence by Maduro's security forces against the poor communities in Venezuela. I had the integrity to read the full report but you do not - instead you just got angry because the facts do not fit your conspiracy theories.

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The topic is not your views on Venezuela. Stay on topic and stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.

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Reply #15 posted 05/29/19 1:15am

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


You’re not going to stop engaging me without being unfairly harsh and critical in ways you are not towards others and unnecessarily rude and condescending but I can’t be bothered right now. War and sanctions are unacceptable regardless of what anyone thinks of any government because war and sanctions target civilians. I think Maduro is more closer to a politician like Bernie Sanders than Hawke. Maduro and Sanders from what I gather don’t necessarily like the system but work within it. (the elites in u.s and Venezuela are gunning for both sanders and Maduro) Hawke on the other hand loved the system and thought it was great, much like Bill Clinton. Also Maduro and Sanders view on foreign relations and war are much more similar. Hawke was so rightwing that he and George Bush Snr we’re accomplices in war. However for the sake of argument let’s say Maduro is like Bob Hawke. Neither one is a dictator. Both also won elections. Maduro under even harsher scrutiny than Hawke. Maduro has large public support similar to Hawke (yes there are those in both countries that don’t like either of them but that can be said about any elected leader) its completely ridiculous that the Labour Party of Australia are supporting a coup and sanctions to overthrow Maduro and claim he is an evil dictator. If Maduro is an evil dictator then what on earth do we call Bob Hawke? Push back against criticism of Maduro is not only because it is fabricated and are CIA lies. (You have not provided the source and link for the story you claim of Maduro attacking the poor. The poor in Venezuela actually make up 3-4 million strong civilian army that support Maduro) The criticism is also used to muddy waters and create this state of confusion by making Maduro seem indefensible to justify the sanctions and a potential military invasion at some stage. If people knew the truth about evil dictator Maduro they will be disappointed to find a figure not much different than many left wing western politicians. I wouldn’t say Maduro and Hawke are similar, Maduro is to the left of Hawke. but we can go with that. . [Edited 5/28/19 23:26pm]

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I did not start this thread to be yet another Haus of lies.


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This is just another Haus of lies because I gave you the source many times - It came through you - It was the full press release that your biased Green Left Weekly media outlet that is beholden to its masters only partly quoted to hide the complaints by real, actual socialists in Venezuela against the racist violence by Maduro's security forces against the poor communities in Venezuela. I had the integrity to read the full report but you do not - instead you just got angry because the facts do not fit your conspiracy theories.


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The topic is not your views on Venezuela. Stay on topic and stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.


Please provide the article you have been asked since the first time you made the claim.
I’m going to ignore yout nastiness and ask you to please provide the article/source you are referring to.
*crickets*

Calling me names and being vicious to try and distract when you are caught out in CIA lies as usual is not going to work this time.
I’m ignoring it and asking you to please provide your article/source that you are referring to.




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[Edited 5/29/19 1:46am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #16 posted 05/29/19 1:45am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

I did not start this thread to be yet another Haus of lies.

.

This is just another Haus of lies because I gave you the source many times - It came through you - It was the full press release that your biased Green Left Weekly media outlet that is beholden to its masters only partly quoted to hide the complaints by real, actual socialists in Venezuela against the racist violence by Maduro's security forces against the poor communities in Venezuela. I had the integrity to read the full report but you do not - instead you just got angry because the facts do not fit your conspiracy theories.

.

The topic is not your views on Venezuela. Stay on topic and stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.

Please provide the article you have been asked since the first time you made the claim. I’m going to ignore yout nastiness and ask you to please provide the article/source you are referring to. *crickets* Calling me names and being vicious when you are caught out in CIA lies is not going to work this time. I’m ignoring it and asking you to please provide your article/source that you referring to. . [Edited 5/29/19 1:25am]

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The topic is not your views on Venezuela.

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Stay on topic

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Stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.

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Stop trolling.

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Stop pretending I did not provide you with the link that included what the Green Left weekly and you could not admit at the time we were discussing this in the thread it related to. The CIA had nothing to do with your Haus of lies.

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Reply #17 posted 05/29/19 2:36am

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


IanRG said:


.


I did not start this thread to be yet another Haus of lies.


.


This is just another Haus of lies because I gave you the source many times - It came through you - It was the full press release that your biased Green Left Weekly media outlet that is beholden to its masters only partly quoted to hide the complaints by real, actual socialists in Venezuela against the racist violence by Maduro's security forces against the poor communities in Venezuela. I had the integrity to read the full report but you do not - instead you just got angry because the facts do not fit your conspiracy theories.


.


The topic is not your views on Venezuela. Stay on topic and stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.



Please provide the article you have been asked since the first time you made the claim. I’m going to ignore yout nastiness and ask you to please provide the article/source you are referring to. *crickets* Calling me names and being vicious when you are caught out in CIA lies is not going to work this time. I’m ignoring it and asking you to please provide your article/source that you referring to. . [Edited 5/29/19 1:25am]

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The topic is not your views on Venezuela.


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Stay on topic


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Stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.


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Stop trolling.


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Stop pretending I did not provide you with the link that included what the Green Left weekly and you could not admit at the time we were discussing this in the thread it related to. The CIA had nothing to do with your Haus of lies.


You didn’t post it and keep refusing to.
you said Maduro was the worst president in the world because of this.
What can be more important than that?

I know exactly what you are referring to. I wouldn’t post it if I were you either.
Your argument falls apart if you do.

We are on topic.
Discussing the Labour Party of Australia’s support of the CIA overthrowing Venezuela’s government for oil is paying homage to Bob Hawkes legacy.



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[Edited 5/29/19 2:55am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #18 posted 05/29/19 2:54am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

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The topic is not your views on Venezuela.

.

Stay on topic

.

Stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.

.

Stop trolling.

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Stop pretending I did not provide you with the link that included what the Green Left weekly and you could not admit at the time we were discussing this in the thread it related to. The CIA had nothing to do with your Haus of lies.

You didn’t post it and keep refusing to. you said Maduro was the worst president in the world because of this. What can be more important than that? I know exactly what you are referring to. I wouldn’t post it if I were you either. Your argument falls apart if you do. . [Edited 5/29/19 2:43am]

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Yes, I did not post it because:

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The topic is not your views on Venezuela.

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You should stay on topic

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You should stop derailing yet another thread to make it about your obsession.

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You should stop trolling.

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I already told you that one of my sources is the Green Left Weekly, so are they part of the CIA conspiracy?

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Another Haus of Lies: I did not say Maduro was the worst president in the world. I said "There are few leaders anywhere in the world that have been as bad as Maduro and Hawke was not one of them." The importance of how bad Maduro is not important at all to Bob Hawke's death.

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Reply #19 posted 05/29/19 2:58am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

We are on topic. Discussing the Labour Party of Australia’s support of the CIA overthrowing Venezuela’s government for oil is keeping Bob Hawkes legacy alive. . [Edited 5/29/19 2:54am]

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No you are not. I did not create the topic for you to take it over with your obsession and lies about an entirely different country and an entirely different person who became dictator of Venezuela in a different century.

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Reply #20 posted 05/29/19 9:59am

hausofmoi7

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Yeah I don’t think anyone cared about this discussion before.
Some actually thought we were arguing about a rare exotic Australasian bird.
So just post it.

This isn’t the wallstreetjournal.org, people here are not as excited about Bob Hawkes legacy as you probably anticipated.
post it here or any of the other threads you were quite happy to go off topic to make the claims in.

Let’s finally see why you are repeating CIA propaganda that Maduro is a evil dictator and one of the worst leaders in the world. Even more so than Bob Hawke.
Quite a claim because in addition to Bob Hawkes bad domestic policies, he actually rallied international support for the Iraqi blockade in the 90s and also participated in the gulf war.
Australia was not sanctioned for any of that so this must be something quite epic against Venezuela and Maduro.


While you finally post that I have some articles about Bob Hawkes legacy to post.








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[Edited 5/29/19 11:36am]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #21 posted 05/29/19 10:04am

Empress

IanRG said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Australia bah

. It is better than all the endless discussions on Trump and gun control and alike.

I completely agree! U.S. politics is a f*cking joke. They have a racist loser running their country and millions love him and think he's great. It's a sad state and he only makes some in the U.S. look like assholes too. It's refreshing to hear about other countries as there are many non-Americans on this site.

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Reply #22 posted 05/29/19 10:56am

hausofmoi7

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Former Labor prime minister Bob Hawke died on May 16. All sorts of people have paid tribute to the man, with many looking back fondly to a time when the country was run by a sort of larrikin who spoke with a working class accent.

In many ways Hawke was charismatic and stood in contrast to the stale types who pass for politicians today. To lots of people he was almost seen as a sort of anti-politician politician, an ordinary person who rose through the ranks and did his best to represent the interests of workers.

But if you look behind the beer swilling and the slang, Hawke sat firmly with the establishment. The policies he pursued were supported by the big business elite, so much so that the main boss’s paper, the Australian Financial Review, endorsed him at the 1983 election.

Hawke was a pioneer of neoliberalism, not just in Australia but around the world. Figures such as Reagan and Thatcher followed Hawke’s career with great interest. Tony Blair’s right wing ‘New Labour’ in Britain was very much modelled on what Hawke was able to achieve in Australia.

For bosses, he pushed through a raft of economic ‘reforms’, each one helping to facilitate increased profits. For workers, his time in power marks a turning point where the union movement began a historic decline and the Labor Party was ended as a party for working-class people.

His life was dedicated to the preservation of capitalism. He paid lip service to action on Aboriginal land rights, but sold out the movement at the request of the West Australian mining industry. In 1986, his government deregistered the militant Builder’s Labourer’s Federation. In 1989, he used the Royal Australian Air Force to scab on striking pilots, smashing the Australian Federation of Air Pilots. During his entire career he was a staunch supporter of US imperialism.

Full article in link below

https://thesocialist.org....1929-2019/
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #23 posted 05/29/19 12:30pm

poppys

Well - the fact that this elite secured Universal Healthcare for his country is looking real good to me. Reagan never managed to do that. Because he didn't want to.


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Reply #24 posted 05/29/19 12:33pm

poppys

Empress said:

IanRG said:

It is better than all the endless discussions on Trump and gun control and alike.


I completely agree! U.S. politics is a f*cking joke. They have a racist loser running their country and millions love him and think he's great. It's a sad state and he only makes some in the U.S. look like assholes too. It's refreshing to hear about other countries as there are many non-Americans on this site.


Agree Empress. People need to start more threads. They don't all stick, but some do.

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Reply #25 posted 05/29/19 1:33pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

poppys said:

Well - the fact that this elite secured Universal Healthcare for his country is looking real good to me. Reagan never managed to do that. Because he didn't want to.




Yes Bob Hawke reimplemented healthcare after it was abolished by the previous government.


Donald Trump is launching this year an international lgbt rights campaign.
Asking nations that don’t support lgbt rights to follow the U.S in that regard on this issue.

Healthcare in Australia and LGBT rights in the U.S can’t be used to shut down dissent and protest of other issues which are just as important.
Like the health and well-being of people outside of our countries too.
In America, Venezuela, Iran, Egypt, Belarus, Mozambique, Yemen, Korea, Portugal, or wherever.



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[Edited 5/29/19 13:43pm]
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #26 posted 05/29/19 1:45pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

Former Labor prime minister Bob Hawke died on May 16. All sorts of people have paid tribute to the man, with many looking back fondly to a time when the country was run by a sort of larrikin who spoke with a working class accent. In many ways Hawke was charismatic and stood in contrast to the stale types who pass for politicians today. To lots of people he was almost seen as a sort of anti-politician politician, an ordinary person who rose through the ranks and did his best to represent the interests of workers. But if you look behind the beer swilling and the slang, Hawke sat firmly with the establishment. The policies he pursued were supported by the big business elite, so much so that the main boss’s paper, the Australian Financial Review, endorsed him at the 1983 election. Hawke was a pioneer of neoliberalism, not just in Australia but around the world. Figures such as Reagan and Thatcher followed Hawke’s career with great interest. Tony Blair’s right wing ‘New Labour’ in Britain was very much modelled on what Hawke was able to achieve in Australia. For bosses, he pushed through a raft of economic ‘reforms’, each one helping to facilitate increased profits. For workers, his time in power marks a turning point where the union movement began a historic decline and the Labor Party was ended as a party for working-class people. His life was dedicated to the preservation of capitalism. He paid lip service to action on Aboriginal land rights, but sold out the movement at the request of the West Australian mining industry. In 1986, his government deregistered the militant Builder’s Labourer’s Federation. In 1989, he used the Royal Australian Air Force to scab on striking pilots, smashing the Australian Federation of Air Pilots. During his entire career he was a staunch supporter of US imperialism. Full article in link below https://thesocialist.org....1929-2019/

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Why do you think that a highly politically biased far left site would present anything but propaganda? In you gross made up error on who owns MSNBC you linked to two articles on the bias in media but rely exclusively on the most biased of sites. You would never seriously consider a far right nut job site as reliable but you have now posted two obits from far left nut job sites. The one thing they both share in common is that they are both far-ked due to their bias being more extreme than most other outlets.

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So lets break it down.

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1 it confirms that most people paid tribute to Hawke and looked fondly on him regardless of their politics - obviously excluding extremists. This is what I said - Hawke brought people together the way politicians in the US, UK and Australia etc cannot or choose not to do today.

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2 The spin that Hawke sat firmly with the establishment just reflects the source's bias. Hawke was a Prime Minister. All Australian Prime Ministers are the establishment. They are elected by the majority of people from one of the major parties of the day. This is fantastic. As a result they dont't have to rely on imprisoning the opposition or forcing revolution. They are far less prone to demonising on race or religion or economic class than the extremists.

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3 The policies he supported were not just supported by business and they were not supported by all business. What he did was for the first ime he brought trade unions to the table to negotiate as equals with business. The politically biased sites you favour represent the very small minority of trade unions and workers organisations that were too extremist to turn from their policies of forcing revolution by undermining the economy and politics against the will of people. Naturally, they will see what Hawke achieved as bad because it undermined their base and showed them up for what they are.

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4 The mention of Reagan and Thatcher is typical propaganda: Note all it says in Reagan and Thatcher followed Hawke's carreer with great interest. Every UK Prime Minister followed every Australian Prime Minister because they are important Prime Ministers in the Empire and later Commonwealth. US Presidents follow the careers of leaders in its allied nations. This does not mean Hawke was like Reagan and Thatcher, the propganda is seeking to deceptivley fake this point. Note both of these people started their term in office before Hawke but the use of word "follow" is to create the false perception that they "followed" him. The UK Labour party did follow the methods Hawke used to be popularly elected - So what? Every major party looks to the successes of equivalent major parties in similar nations. The false impression being sought to made here is Tony Blair's support of the lies that lead to the second Iraq war have tainted his reputation and your biased website is seeking to extend that taint.

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5 Yes, his economic policies enabled profitability for businesses. It also helped prevent the collapse of the Australian financial system, limited the depth and regularity of recessions, provided a hybrid universal health system with a serious number benefits over Obamacare or the UK's NHS.

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6 I agree that Hawke's management of Indigenous Rights could have been far better and his improvements where less than they could have been. Hawke is no orphan here.

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7 Yes, he did have run ins with some trade unions but the majority supported and worked with him. The BLF was corrupt and extremist, the AFAP was seeking a 30% wage rise when other workers were getting a 11% wage rise.

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8 I agree that Hawke was too ready to support US wars, again he was not an orphan. The support of Kuwait war was wrong but far less wrong than the support for the Iraq war on the basis of false claims to WMDs to force regime change.

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If a politician cannot be seen as having done some things wrongand some thing right, they failed as polticians because they did nothing.

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Reply #27 posted 05/29/19 1:47pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

poppys said:

Well - the fact that this elite secured Universal Healthcare for his country is looking real good to me. Reagan never managed to do that. Because he didn't want to.


Yes Bob Hawke reimplemented healthcare after it was abolished by the previous government. [Edited 5/29/19 13:43pm]

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If you actually lived here then you would know that Medibank in the 1970s was completely different to Medicare under Hawke

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Reply #28 posted 05/29/19 1:51pm

poppys

hausofmoi7 said:

Donald Trump is launching this year an international lgbt rights campaign.
Asking nations that don’t support lgbt rights to follow the U.S in that regard on this issue.



Bullshit, unless it's window dressing. Start another thread. Or post on the gay rights repeal thread we have going right now, and get schooled. You are dragging the kitchen sink in here. Off-topic and WRONG to boot. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2019/05/29/transgender-activists-rally-against-trump-policies-at-white-house/


[Edited 5/29/19 14:42pm]

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Reply #29 posted 05/29/19 3:01pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

poppys said:

hausofmoi7 said:

Donald Trump is launching this year an international lgbt rights campaign.
Asking nations that don’t support lgbt rights to follow the U.S in that regard on this issue.



Bullshit, unless it's window dressing. Start another thread. Or post on the gay rights repeal thread we have going right now, and get schooled. You are dragging the kitchen sink in here. Off-topic and WRONG to boot. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2019/05/29/transgender-activists-rally-against-trump-policies-at-white-house/


[Edited 5/29/19 14:42pm]



I don’t think you realised that is only the mid section of a statement.
read the whole thing then reply again wink
P.s sometimes when you press reply button it deletes part of text.
The actual point was below it with the rest of the sentence.
“It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non- violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection” - Lesley Hazleton on the first Muslim, the prophet.
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