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Thread started 02/08/19 8:43am

2freaky4church
1

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Underated MJ, Whatever Happens.

I do like this one. Santana vibe:

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #1 posted 02/08/19 10:29am

RODSERLING

For the record :
.
1. MJ and Santana never met each other in studio. When they thank each other at the end of the song, it s totally fake, and the song didn't need that, 2bad.
.
2. In the initial tracklist of Invincible, it s incredible that Whatever Happens didn't make the cut. There was instead a longer version of 2000 watts which faded into Shout.
.
3. Amazingly, neither MJ nor Sony ever considered Releasing Whatever Happens as a single, and they originally planned 7 singles !
. Yrmw, BTFLs, Cry, Unbreakable, Invincible, Speechless and Heaven Can Wait.
.
4. Whatever Happens was heavily played on french urban radio stations in December of. 2001, instead of Cry which wasn't very hype for the youth.
.
5. If this song was released as the second single just after YRMW, it would have been a #1 worldwide hit and would have propelled Invincible to massive sales for the holiday season.
.
6. It would have saved MJ s carreer, reputation and life, since he wouldn't have needed to do Living with MJ, wouldn't have been put to trial, etc.
.
7. The live performance of this song was considered for the Grammy award. MJ s musicians repeated it, but then Santana cancelled his venue because he was on tour. Then Michael cancelled it all.
.
8. In 2001 among concepts of music video that were proposed to Michael that he refused, was one for WH.
Michael was supposed to play a street singer in the favellas. During the verses, there was footage of the story of the song : a young couple took into the Latino mafia or something like that, and the young man was supposed to be played by one of MJ s nephew. During The climax of the video, his fiancée is killed, and he is hurt badly with a scar on his face trying to save her.
.
At the end of the video, you discover that Michael has the scar on his face too, so it was actually his story that he sang to poor people in the streets !
.
That would have been really moving and a good music video. But at the time, MJ refused everything that was supposed to promote the album.
.
9. 18 years later, I m still frustrated and pissed off by this waste of artistically and commercial potentials
.
10. I m sure there is another dimension where WH was a huge hit, MJ still alive, and that Prince joined MJ and Santana on stage on the 2002 Grammy awards.
[Edited 2/8/19 10:31am]
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Reply #2 posted 02/08/19 12:19pm

alphastreet

It was a standout track from first listen. Should have been a released hit, no excuses
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Reply #3 posted 02/08/19 1:39pm

JabarR74

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Reply #4 posted 02/08/19 4:00pm

alphastreet

Thanks for sharing, sped up reminds me of Billie Jean and who is it
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Reply #5 posted 02/08/19 4:59pm

Matthaus

I love it, it was one of my favorites the first time I heard Invincible boogie

Didn't know about that video concept, that would've been great!

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Reply #6 posted 02/08/19 8:21pm

Free2BMe

Matthaus said:

I love it, it was one of my favorites the first time I heard Invincible boogie


Didn't know about that video concept, that would've been great!



This has always been one of my favorites from Invincible. I heard that this song was slated as a single. Michael’s nephews said that Michael had discussed them being a part of the video. Therefore, it seems as if this track was destined to be released AND a video planned for it. I don’t think Michael would have been planning to have 3T(his nephews) a part of the video, if there had been no plans to release it. With all of the sabotaging from Mottola, who knows why he wouldn’t allow it to be released. Even with the sabotaging, Invincible still did great sales. Motolla/Sony did absolutely no promotion in the USA. Black radio is the reason for the promotion that the album did receive. They played the hell out of Butterflies, YRMW, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait. Also, word of mouth caused sales. People that hadn’t listened to Michael in years bought that album, especially black people.
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Reply #7 posted 02/09/19 12:29am

RODSERLING

Free2BMe said:

Matthaus said:

I love it, it was one of my favorites the first time I heard Invincible boogie


Didn't know about that video concept, that would've been great!



This has always been one of my favorites from Invincible. I heard that this song was slated as a single. Michael’s nephews said that Michael had discussed them being a part of the video. Therefore, it seems as if this track was destined to be released AND a video planned for it. I don’t think Michael would have been planning to have 3T(his nephews) a part of the video, if there had been no plans to release it. With all of the sabotaging from Mottola, who knows why he wouldn’t allow it to be released. Even with the sabotaging, Invincible still did great sales. Motolla/Sony did absolutely no promotion in the USA. Black radio is the reason for the promotion that the album did receive. They played the hell out of Butterflies, YRMW, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait. Also, word of mouth caused sales. People that hadn’t listened to Michael in years bought that album, especially black people.


Maybe this list of singles planned by MJ and Sony ( but not in the same order) was done for the I totally tracks
Cklist for the initial 24th of September 2001 release, before it was pushed back to the 30 the October with WH added.
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Reply #8 posted 02/09/19 9:07am

alphastreet

Free2BMe said:

Matthaus said:

I love it, it was one of my favorites the first time I heard Invincible boogie


Didn't know about that video concept, that would've been great!



This has always been one of my favorites from Invincible. I heard that this song was slated as a single. Michael’s nephews said that Michael had discussed them being a part of the video. Therefore, it seems as if this track was destined to be released AND a video planned for it. I don’t think Michael would have been planning to have 3T(his nephews) a part of the video, if there had been no plans to release it. With all of the sabotaging from Mottola, who knows why he wouldn’t allow it to be released. Even with the sabotaging, Invincible still did great sales. Motolla/Sony did absolutely no promotion in the USA. Black radio is the reason for the promotion that the album did receive. They played the hell out of Butterflies, YRMW, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait. Also, word of mouth caused sales. People that hadn’t listened to Michael in years bought that album, especially black people.


Heaven can wait even made the r&b charts based on airplay alone and butterflies was at number 2 on r&b for weeks. Mj should have focused on his urban audience more instead of mainstream for album promotion. It would have crossed over more easily. Yes I know he did vibe and the Steve Harvey interview, but more like that would have helped.
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Reply #9 posted 02/09/19 2:54pm

SoulAlive

when I first head the album,I thought "THIS is gonna be a number one hit single".Shame on Sony for not realizing the obvious hit potential of this song,smh.

.

[Edited 2/9/19 14:55pm]

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Reply #10 posted 02/09/19 3:09pm

alphastreet

SoulAlive said:

when I first head the album,I thought "THIS is gonna be a number one hit single".Shame on Sony for not realizing the obvious hit potential of this song,smh.



.

[Edited 2/9/19 14:55pm]



Yeah for real right?
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Reply #11 posted 02/09/19 4:48pm

Free2BMe

alphastreet said:

Free2BMe said:



This has always been one of my favorites from Invincible. I heard that this song was slated as a single. Michael’s nephews said that Michael had discussed them being a part of the video. Therefore, it seems as if this track was destined to be released AND a video planned for it. I don’t think Michael would have been planning to have 3T(his nephews) a part of the video, if there had been no plans to release it. With all of the sabotaging from Mottola, who knows why he wouldn’t allow it to be released. Even with the sabotaging, Invincible still did great sales. Motolla/Sony did absolutely no promotion in the USA. Black radio is the reason for the promotion that the album did receive. They played the hell out of Butterflies, YRMW, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait. Also, word of mouth caused sales. People that hadn’t listened to Michael in years bought that album, especially black people.


Heaven can wait even made the r&b charts based on airplay alone and
butterflies was at number 2 on r&b for weeks. Mj should have focused on his urban audience more instead of mainstream for album promotion. It would have crossed over more easily. Yes I know he did vibe and the Steve Harvey interview, but more like that would have helped.


Maybe I missed something;but, I didn’t see any mainstream promotion for Invincible. MJ did BET, MTV and the Madison Square Garden concert, Steve Harvey interview and Vibe. Where was the “mainstream” promotion. It seems as if the majority of promotion done by Michael was geared toward urban audiences.
Of course, Michael was the first black artist who demanded that his videos premier on BET simultaneously with MTV. Other artists would allow MTV to premiere video and other outlets follow. Michael also made sure that he always did an interview with a black magazine first, instead of a mainstream one. He was the biggest star in the world and EVERY magazine wanted to interview him. He refused the majority of mainstream media. One of the reasons that they had/have a vendetta against him.
[Edited 2/9/19 16:57pm]
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Reply #12 posted 02/09/19 5:04pm

alphastreet

TV guide interview was an example of mainstream. And another magazine I can’t recall. Also the online one with fans which was cool. It wasn’t really mainstream but yrmw still did okay on its own. What I remember back then Is people not realizing the album already came out when I was playing it on headphones. I think 106&park liked him better than trl, though he gave an interview there too.
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Reply #13 posted 02/10/19 7:13am

RODSERLING

YRMW was #10 on BB200, #9 on airplay.
BTFLS Was #14 on B200, #12 on airplay, without music video, live performances, or physical release.
Heaven Can Wait was #74 on rnb charts where it stayed for 16 weeks, #72 on airplay rnb charts.
.
YRMW and BTFLS both had 120.000 spins on radio, HCW 5.700, Break Of Dawn 3.500, Speechless 250, Unbreakable and Whatever Happens under 100.
.
Does anybody know hoch much WH is making on Spotify?
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Reply #14 posted 02/10/19 12:17pm

alphastreet

How many spins did cry get? I only heard it on the radio once so I wondered
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Reply #15 posted 02/11/19 3:18am

RODSERLING

alphastreet said:

How many spins did cry get? I only heard it on the radio once so I wondered


2000 spins.
In France it was #20 on airplay
[Edited 2/11/19 3:21am]
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Reply #16 posted 02/11/19 6:51am

2045RadicalMat
tZ

It was a grower, but i still think the album is mostly mixed poorly. This track is one of the worst in terms of that.

It was a pretty great album but i would've cut about 4 songs to keep it great. (Lost children, invincible (*might have been saved with a better mix/tighter band) cry, speechless)
"Ahhh c'mon, BE A NOSE! " - WALTER PAISLEY
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Reply #17 posted 02/11/19 10:18am

alphastreet

It took about 3 listens to really get into the album as a whole, cause at first listen, about half the album came through. And now it’s cool but fall again and about instead of you are my life would have made it perfect
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Reply #18 posted 02/11/19 10:18am

alphastreet

alphastreet said:

It took about 3 listens to really get into the album as a whole, cause at first listen, about half the album came through. And now it’s cool but fall again and shout instead of you are my life would have made it perfect
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Reply #19 posted 02/11/19 10:32am

daingermouz202
0

Free2BMe said:

Matthaus said:

I love it, it was one of my favorites the first time I heard Invincible boogie


Didn't know about that video concept, that would've been great!



This has always been one of my favorites from Invincible. I heard that this song was slated as a single. Michael’s nephews said that Michael had discussed them being a part of the video. Therefore, it seems as if this track was destined to be released AND a video planned for it. I don’t think Michael would have been planning to have 3T(his nephews) a part of the video, if there had been no plans to release it. With all of the sabotaging from Mottola, who knows why he wouldn’t allow it to be released. Even with the sabotaging, Invincible still did great sales. Motolla/Sony did absolutely no promotion in the USA. Black radio is the reason for the promotion that the album did receive. They played the hell out of Butterflies, YRMW, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait. Also, word of mouth caused sales. People that hadn’t listened to Michael in years bought that album, especially black people.



This MJ album is his most forgettable imo. I only recall You Rock My World, Butterflies. Perhaps I should give it another listen.
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Reply #20 posted 02/13/19 12:01pm

RODSERLING

daingermouz2020 said:

Free2BMe said:



This has always been one of my favorites from Invincible. I heard that this song was slated as a single. Michael’s nephews said that Michael had discussed them being a part of the video. Therefore, it seems as if this track was destined to be released AND a video planned for it. I don’t think Michael would have been planning to have 3T(his nephews) a part of the video, if there had been no plans to release it. With all of the sabotaging from Mottola, who knows why he wouldn’t allow it to be released. Even with the sabotaging, Invincible still did great sales. Motolla/Sony did absolutely no promotion in the USA. Black radio is the reason for the promotion that the album did receive. They played the hell out of Butterflies, YRMW, Break of Dawn, Whatever Happens, and Heaven Can Wait. Also, word of mouth caused sales. People that hadn’t listened to Michael in years bought that album, especially black people.



This MJ album is his most forgettable imo. I only recall You Rock My World, Butterflies. Perhaps I should give it another listen.


Like Brad Sundberg said, every songs of the album are great in itselves.
The problem is that they are overproduced, under mixed, and they lack of love during their conception.
.
The only track s were MJ was invested in were the ones produced by Jerkins.
.
For The other tracks, MJ didn't even bother to do the background vocals, which was damageable since it was a domain were MJ was the best.
.
Moreover, EVERY tracks beside maybe Lost Children and Speechless ( where he didn't do the chorus too) follow the same pattern : 1 verse, one chorus, 2nd verse, chorus*2, bridge, chorus*3.
.
I was shocked too see that during the first listening, so it s clearly obvious.
.
There are no "real" musical moments where the music breaths beside :
- Unbreakable outro
- a solo of noise on Heartbreaker (!)
- YRMW intro
- the guitar solos on Privacy and Whatever Happens.
And that's all.
.
Of course there are great moments such as the bridges (especially the 3 first tracks) and the presence of my homonym ( the rap is fucking great and innovative) but even his voice on Theatened is undermixed, you can barely hear him which is a shame since it was by far the best idea of the album.
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Reply #21 posted 02/13/19 12:39pm

alphastreet

Mj and Rodney were a good match for sure. 2000 watts and whatever happens captured that magic too
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Reply #22 posted 02/13/19 1:58pm

RODSERLING

alphastreet said:

Mj and Rodney were a good match for sure. 2000 watts and whatever happens captured that magic too


Yeah, but 2BAD MJ didn't do background vocals on 2000 watts.
He could have done the vocal parts of Teddy Riley too.
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Reply #23 posted 02/13/19 3:44pm

alphastreet

RODSERLING said:

alphastreet said:

Mj and Rodney were a good match for sure. 2000 watts and whatever happens captured that magic too


Yeah, but 2BAD MJ didn't do background vocals on 2000 watts.
He could have done the vocal parts of Teddy Riley too.


Now that would have been awesome, and more like bad and dangerous vocal layers!
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Reply #24 posted 02/14/19 2:17pm

2045RadicalMat
tZ

RODSERLING said:

daingermouz2020 said:
This MJ album is his most forgettable imo. I only recall You Rock My World, Butterflies. Perhaps I should give it another listen.
Like Brad Sundberg said, every songs of the album are great in itselves. The problem is that they are overproduced, under mixed, and they lack of love during their conception. . The only track s were MJ was invested in were the ones produced by Jerkins. . For The other tracks, MJ didn't even bother to do the background vocals, which was damageable since it was a domain were MJ was the best. . Moreover, EVERY tracks beside maybe Lost Children and Speechless ( where he didn't do the chorus too) follow the same pattern : 1 verse, one chorus, 2nd verse, chorus*2, bridge, chorus*3. . I was shocked too see that during the first listening, so it s clearly obvious. . There are no "real" musical moments where the music breaths beside : - Unbreakable outro - a solo of noise on Heartbreaker (!) - YRMW intro - the guitar solos on Privacy and Whatever Happens. And that's all. . Of course there are great moments such as the bridges (especially the 3 first tracks) and the presence of my homonym ( the rap is fucking great and innovative) but even his voice on Theatened is undermixed, you can barely hear him which is a shame since it was by far the best idea of the album.

Spot on assessment.

For all the talk of it taking something like 50-65 mixes (i forget which number was quoted but it was huge) before it met Michael's approval, only a few of the album tracks have standout sonic value... yes that's correct. Like I said as well... if you got the multi tracks someone could probably do a great version of that album. a remixed album.

It has no UMPF... probably heavily compressed vocals. all that spatial stuff was missing.

Threatened comes close like you said. There's actually a repeat sample of stone slabs moving.... it really would've benefitted from being more prominent... as well as the guitars (synth or not).

The heavy fake use of synthetic drums doesn't help on it either. Its not relatable. If they did something similar to what the ROOTS did on that (now old) album THE TIPPING POINT - "Don't Say Nuthin'"... distorted crunch that kinda draws in the old Knight Rider kinda drive... that's what would've sounded richer than the horrible mix on Unbreakable.

Even the atmospheric Keys are totally subdued in the back and all the elements feel shelved at the front. It's a shitty mix all around on that album excluding Butterflies. (big surprise there [sarcasm])

but also very little variation. I sometimes forget 2000 watts is on there cause I removed it for space reasons from my phone (and dont miss it)... along with Speechless and Lost Children.

For a guy who in later years delivered his vocals with scalding heat, it's a shame the album is so flat

"Ahhh c'mon, BE A NOSE! " - WALTER PAISLEY
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Reply #25 posted 02/15/19 6:00pm

tump

There were several "that sounds weak" or "that sounds formulaic / predictable" moments for me on Invincible. My immediate impression was that nothing beat Dangerous (or some of the sonic surprises on some tracks of Blood On The Dancefloor, though the remixes belong in the bin aside from the first tolerable one).

* Whatever Happens. Good, if somewhat 'by-the-numbers-paste-guitar-solo-here'. "Thank You, Man" "Thank You Carlos" came across more as advertising his involvement in the track than anything else. Weak 'verbal exchange and tiring to hear more than once, like most 'interludes' like this put on albums.

* the way that 2000 Watts faded out sounded wrong (before I even found out it was shortened later). Song needs an exciting break/change since it's too repetitive

* son's voice sounded way too scripted and rehearsed when appended to that sappy song (forget which one). Years later I found out it wasn't a 'natural' recorded moment...it was in fact rehearsed.

* Threatened was overhyped in a Rodney Jerkins interview I watched (before the album's release). What a complete disappointment! A disjointed track, broken up too much. No sonic surprises here at all. I got a tired 'repeating Thriller' vibe from it. Could have been so much more

* first 3 'fast' tracks sound ultimately weak despite some interesting sonic experiments

* Break Of Dawn was the stand-out track for me, despite some reservations about what a u-turn this was for MJ

* You Rock My World is too weak as a first single. Bland.

* You Are My Life sounds too much like a Babyface song rather than one for MJ. It is ok but cookie-cutter Babyface

* Cry = cookie-cutter

I haven't listened to the album in years...yet I always go back to Dangerous. That says a lot.

[Edited 2/15/19 18:02pm]

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Reply #26 posted 02/15/19 7:21pm

alphastreet

Invincible almost feels like a reimagining of dangerous with cookie cutter bits and advertising other singers and performers. From day one this album was rumoured to have every hot artist of the time on it, which ended up becoming the 30th anniversary and a producer filled album

I like it a lot and had on heavy rotation for years, but it’s not really original musically to those familiar with r&b/hip hop from 1995 to 2001
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Reply #27 posted 02/16/19 1:26am

RODSERLING

tump said:

There were several "that sounds weak" or "that sounds formulaic / predictable" moments for me on Invincible. My immediate impression was that nothing beat Dangerous (or some of the sonic surprises on some tracks of Blood On The Dancefloor, though the remixes belong in the bin aside from the first tolerable one).



* Whatever Happens. Good, if somewhat 'by-the-numbers-paste-guitar-solo-here'. "Thank You, Man" "Thank You Carlos" came across more as advertising his involvement in the track than anything else. Weak 'verbal exchange and tiring to hear more than once, like most 'interludes' like this put on albums.


* the way that 2000 Watts faded out sounded wrong (before I even found out it was shortened later). Song needs an exciting break/change since it's too repetitive


* son's voice sounded way too scripted and rehearsed when appended to that sappy song (forget which one). Years later I found out it wasn't a 'natural' recorded moment...it was in fact rehearsed.


* Threatened was overhyped in a Rodney Jerkins interview I watched (before the album's release). What a complete disappointment! A disjointed track, broken up too much. No sonic surprises here at all. I got a tired 'repeating Thriller' vibe from it. Could have been so much more


* first 3 'fast' tracks sound ultimately weak despite some interesting sonic experiments


* Break Of Dawn was the stand-out track for me, despite some reservations about what a u-turn this was for MJ


* You Rock My World is too weak as a first single. Bland.


* You Are My Life sounds too much like a Babyface song rather than one for MJ. It is ok but cookie-cutter Babyface


* Cry = cookie-cutter



I haven't listened to the album in years...yet I always go back to Dangerous. That says a lot.






[Edited 2/15/19 18:02pm]



I agree with you on many things I said before in this topic, but...YRMW too weak as a first single ? It was #1 all over the world, and broke many records in France.
.
It s one of the most played MJ song on Spotify and YouTube.
What else could have been the lead single ?

The intro on YRMW was really unnecessary. I was shocked to see that on a MJ s album. It was fun on the single version, but it should have stayed on this format
3 weird moments on Privacy that sounds a lot amateurish :
.
1) a fading problem in the end of the song. That s incredible : how could MJ let go something like that ? He never listened to the album final mix? Weird, really weird.
.
2) MJ shouts "Slash!" Before the "guitar solo" which is really crappy. Slash wasn't available, he was replaced by Michael Thompson, whoever is this guy.
.
3) The song is supposedly about Lady Diana s death. She famously died on summer but still MJ sings " on that cold winter night" (?!)
It would have been more coherent and poetic to say " on that cold summer night"
[Edited 2/16/19 1:41am]
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Reply #28 posted 02/16/19 3:54am

tump

I agree with you on many things I said before in this topic, but...YRMW too weak as a first single ? It was #1 all over the world, and broke many records in France. . It s one of the most played MJ song on Spotify and YouTube.

Any song will reach number 1 from a new MJ album somewhere.

Playback of You Rock My World, if it is high, is probably purely because it was chosen as the first single and of course people will play the most recognisable tracks first, particularly casual fans (of which there are many). I was just never really feeling that track and still don't.

If I were selling records I'd choose several singles on the album before You Rock My World. Invincible would be an obvious first song choice to advertise the album. Coupled with an innovative video it would do very well...because it's Michael Jackson and everyone will be watching. The song bumps along better than You Rock My World as a first single. Break Of Dawn or Whatever Happens probably would be good second singles. But the album overall is his weakest solo album, in my opinion. Not counting the crappy remixes on Blood On The dancefloor. Or the after-death tragic cash-ins.

I can put on Dangerous and still be blown away in several areas. Give In To Me (just timeless), Keep The Faith (yesss), Jam (still great), Why You Wanna Trip On Me (more, more), Heal The World, Dangerous (love it), Who Is It (ahh!), Black Or White (minus intro), etc. To my ears there was none of that pure magic on Invincible. Something was definitely lost. I'm going to have to give it another listen to hear the stuff you pointed out. My copy was put away somewhere rather quickly.

[Edited 2/16/19 3:57am]

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Reply #29 posted 02/16/19 7:39am

RODSERLING

tump said:

I agree with you on many things I said before in this topic, but...YRMW too weak as a first single ? It was #1 all over the world, and broke many records in France. . It s one of the most played MJ song on Spotify and YouTube.

Any song will reach number 1 from a new MJ album somewhere.



Playback of You Rock My World, if it is high, is probably purely because it was chosen as the first single and of course people will play the most recognisable tracks first, particularly casual fans (of which there are many). I was just never really feeling that track and still don't.



If I were selling records I'd choose several singles on the album before You Rock My World. Invincible would be an obvious first song choice to advertise the album. Coupled with an innovative video it would do very well...because it's Michael Jackson and everyone will be watching. The song bumps along better than You Rock My World as a first single. Break Of Dawn or Whatever Happens probably would be good second singles. But the album overall is his weakest solo album, in my opinion. Not counting the crappy remixes on Blood On The dancefloor. Or the after-death tragic cash-ins.



I can put on Dangerous and still be blown away in several areas. Give In To Me (just timeless), Keep The Faith (yesss), Jam (still great), Why You Wanna Trip On Me (more, more), Heal The World, Dangerous (love it), Who Is It (ahh!), Black Or White (minus intro), etc. To my ears there was none of that pure magic on Invincible. Something was definitely lost. I'm going to have to give it another listen to hear the stuff you pointed out. My copy was put away somewhere rather quickly.

[Edited 2/16/19 3:57am]



YRMW is a cross over track. It was heavily played on urban, pop/rock, adult and young radio.
Whatever Happens could have achieved that too for sure. But not Invincible, who could only appeal to young urban radio. This is a great song IMHO, but definitely not a cross over song
.
Ppp
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