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Thread started 11/23/18 8:32am

PURPLEIZED3121

Prince influenced by Rick James in the early days? - I just cant see it!

I just dont get it! Rick is oft cited as big influence but I've watched loads of clips from around that time & I just dont get it! Besides the fact that they played on that joint tour I see that they have zero in common! Ricks cringe-worthy copy of Prince's P.Rain look & sound is pitiful too!

Key areas that we'd class influence as are:

The look - nope - they were 1 one many bands rocking that look done best by Funkadelic etc

The sound - come on, hell no! On record I find Rick James cheesy, live was OK BUT not on the same level of creativity as Prince's band at the time [on the joint tour]

Stage craft - no! -Prince had this nailed down early, Rick was Sexual Chocolate!

Mary Jane Girls - 50/50 & very debateable - did P get the Vanity 6 idea from here?

The band - maybe a bit BUT early Revolution had it nailed down pretty good.

Sorry guys, the influencers are all the obvious ones...i think Rick just made P competitive each night!

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Reply #1 posted 11/23/18 1:09pm

PeteSilas

from the sounds of it in ricks bio, Prince did take things but they were the kinds of things that generic bands do "clap your hands everybody" or such, nothing major, just communicating with an audience which Prince desperately needed, Prince was an introvert, he had to learn how to be an extrovert or pretend to be. Rick was about as comfortable in front of thousands as you would ever see. Vanity? I could see some of that stuff being stolen from the mary jane girls, wasn't jill jones in the James camp? Prince was stealing his people. Songwise I think that Prince too the riff from Mary Jane for the song If I was Your Girlfriend.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #2 posted 11/24/18 11:11am

eugenius

Depending on who you believe, Prince got the idea of Vanity 6 from Rick.

.

During the Fire it Up tour (Feb 1980 - May 1980), Rick mentioned an idea of a rauncy all-girl band he had to Prince.

.
According to legend, Rick told Prince sometime during the aforementioned tour -- probably early on since the friction between the two grew as the tour progressed -- that he wanted to turn his background singers, (already casually referred to by Rick and his crew as the Mary Jane Girls) into a band of their own. Prince beat him to the punch while Rick was dicking around in a weed- and cocaine-fueled daze and started demoing Hookers songs by early 1981.

.

(I am ready to be told I'm completely wrong by the official and self-appointed Prince historians who were there and witnessed the formation of The Hookers/Vanity 6 firsthand.)

Why is it so difficult to upload an avatar?
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Reply #3 posted 11/24/18 2:19pm

purplethunder3
121

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Of course, Prince learned stuff from Rick James as he learned from other artists...

"If you're living, you've got nothing left to prove..."
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Reply #4 posted 11/24/18 2:53pm

violetcrush

eugenius said:

Depending on who you believe, Prince got the idea of Vanity 6 from Rick.

.

During the Fire it Up tour (Feb 1980 - May 1980), Rick mentioned an idea of a rauncy all-girl band he had to Prince.

.
According to legend, Rick told Prince sometime during the aforementioned tour -- probably early on since the friction between the two grew as the tour progressed -- that he wanted to turn his background singers, (already casually referred to by Rick and his crew as the Mary Jane Girls) into a band of their own. Prince beat him to the punch while Rick was dicking around in a weed- and cocaine-fueled daze and started demoing Hookers songs by early 1981.

.

(I am ready to be told I'm completely wrong by the official and self-appointed Prince historians who were there and witnessed the formation of The Hookers/Vanity 6 firsthand.)

I've read this too, and they sort of touched on it during Mike Judge's Tour Bus show. Although, the band members stated that "Prince kept him working hard" when they were talking about Prince's side projects V6 and The Time, so not completely sure.

*

I fully believe that Prince took style and performance ideas from Rick. Prince was just starting to tour, and Rick was much more established and 10 years older. Rick stated as the tour progressed he would watch Prince doing many of his 'signature" things. I'm sure Prince put his own "spin" on it, but I would think he took some things from Rick.
*

There are so many stories of Prince taking style ideas from others - Hucky Austin's backward bandana, Steve Parke's ear cuffs, Susannah's peach/black color combo, etc.

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Reply #5 posted 11/24/18 3:37pm

42Kristen

Prince was npt only influence by Rick James. But other great artists before his time.

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Reply #6 posted 11/24/18 4:41pm

violetcrush

42Kristen said:

Prince was npt only influence by Rick James. But other great artists before his time.

Yes, definitely James B, Jimi, Stevie, Sly Stone, etc...

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Reply #7 posted 11/24/18 5:09pm

SoulAlive

interestingly,Prince and Rick both released their debut albums around the same time (April 1978).Prince's "Soft and Wet" was a minor hit,but Rick's two singles ("You and I" and "Mary Jane") were huge hits.

This was one of two times when Rick had the edge over Prince.The other time was in 1981.Street Songs was huge,while Controversy,a superb album,wasn't a massive seller.

After 1982,though,Prince was clearly winning the battle.

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Reply #8 posted 11/24/18 5:21pm

violetcrush

SoulAlive said:

interestingly,Prince and Rick both released their debut albums around the same time (April 1978).Prince's "Soft and Wet" was a minor hit,but Rick's two singles ("You and I" and "Mary Jane") were huge hits.

This was one of two times when Rick had the edge over Prince.The other time was in 1981.Street Songs was huge,while Controversy,a superb album,wasn't a massive seller.

After 1982,though,Prince was clearly winning the battle.

Yes, and there is the other interesting tid-bit that Rick stole Prince's equipment (because he was pissed about the Fire It Up tour) and used his pre-recorded music when recording Street Songs biggrin

*

No doubt Prince cruised past Rick by '82-'83. Rick may have stayed in the race a bit longer if it had not been for the cocaine addiction.

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Reply #9 posted 11/24/18 7:15pm

PeteSilas

violetcrush said:

SoulAlive said:

interestingly,Prince and Rick both released their debut albums around the same time (April 1978).Prince's "Soft and Wet" was a minor hit,but Rick's two singles ("You and I" and "Mary Jane") were huge hits.

This was one of two times when Rick had the edge over Prince.The other time was in 1981.Street Songs was huge,while Controversy,a superb album,wasn't a massive seller.

After 1982,though,Prince was clearly winning the battle.

Yes, and there is the other interesting tid-bit that Rick stole Prince's equipment (because he was pissed about the Fire It Up tour) and used his pre-recorded music when recording Street Songs biggrin

*

No doubt Prince cruised past Rick by '82-'83. Rick may have stayed in the race a bit longer if it had not been for the cocaine addiction.

never heard it was P's music but rather his keyboard programs, didn't rick send them back with some half assed apology later?

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #10 posted 11/24/18 7:16pm

PeteSilas

SoulAlive said:

interestingly,Prince and Rick both released their debut albums around the same time (April 1978).Prince's "Soft and Wet" was a minor hit,but Rick's two singles ("You and I" and "Mary Jane") were huge hits.

This was one of two times when Rick had the edge over Prince.The other time was in 1981.Street Songs was huge,while Controversy,a superb album,wasn't a massive seller.

After 1982,though,Prince was clearly winning the battle.

I never thought of that as Rick's debut was it really? fantastic album, but then rick was a good ten years older than Prince and more experienced.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #11 posted 11/26/18 9:07am

PDogz

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There did seem to be a few signature gestures/routines of Rick's that Prince appeared to have borrowed from him while on the "Fire It Up" tour (...flinging sweat from his brow into the audience on the 1's & 2's of a jam, etc - Difficult to explain in writing, easier to have observed on that tour). Though clearly, Rick James was far from the only artist that Prince was being influenced by in those early years. And by the end, most were being influenced by Prince. It's all good.

"There's Nothing That The Proper Attitude Won't Render Funkable!"

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Reply #12 posted 11/26/18 9:18am

jaawwnn

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He's kind of considered the bridge between P-Funk and Prince isn't he? Taking in some influence from the punk stuff in the UK while staying 100% a funk player. I can hear some of it in Fire it Up alright, can also hear it in Cameo's stuff around 1979 as well.

Maybe he worked more of a bridge for listeners?

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Reply #13 posted 11/26/18 11:00am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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I don't hear it at all from the music, maybe it is some part of playing or presentation

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Reply #14 posted 11/26/18 11:11am

frazetta

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anybody catching Tales From the Tourbus doc on SHO? It's great. Prince is all over the part 2 episode of the Rick James episode. In cartoon form at that (and very era-specific with the hair). GREAT STUFF and show.

Created by Mike Judge from Beavis & Butthead fame from MTV.

[Edited 11/26/18 11:12am]

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Reply #15 posted 11/27/18 4:45am

PURPLEIZED3121

frazetta said:

anybody catching Tales From the Tourbus doc on SHO? It's great. Prince is all over the part 2 episode of the Rick James episode. In cartoon form at that (and very era-specific with the hair). GREAT STUFF and show.

Created by Mike Judge from Beavis & Butthead fame from MTV.

[Edited 11/26/18 11:12am]

love it!

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Reply #16 posted 11/27/18 5:15am

1725topp

Of course, Rick James was bitter about Prince becoming more popular than him, especially when Rick's career started more popular than Prince's career. However, Rick's bitterness does not void that fact that, even in some small ways, Rick influenced Prince. Prince didn't land from space fully complete as the superstar he became. And, people like Rick James and others influence him in various ways. I just find it hilarious that the same folks who find it impossible that Prince could be influenced by Rick also completely blame Larry Graham for Prince's demise. So, let me get this straight. Prince was too mentally strong and creative to be influenced by Rick but not by Graham. Hilarious. Man, y'all mofos are more entertaining than tv.

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Reply #17 posted 11/27/18 5:16am

1725topp

frazetta said:

anybody catching Tales From the Tourbus doc on SHO? It's great. Prince is all over the part 2 episode of the Rick James episode. In cartoon form at that (and very era-specific with the hair). GREAT STUFF and show.

Created by Mike Judge from Beavis & Butthead fame from MTV.

[Edited 11/26/18 11:12am]

*

Yes, love it as well. Thanks, Bart for hipping me to it!

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Reply #18 posted 11/27/18 5:40am

mediumdry

I think was definitely influenced by Rick James, but as much about what not to do as about what to do. Rick James, who had quite a history in "white" music broke through with black music and was popular with black audiences. He had a token white guitar player, but fit in as halfway home between deep funk like P-Funk and smoother soul influenced funk like Earth Wind & Fire and the Commodores.

.

I think Rick James is part of the reason that Prince not only further developed musically along the lines that were already detectable on Prince, but also changed his image into something that was very recognizable and acceptable by white rock audiences and rock critics.

.

He was quite careful and deliberate about becoming a crossover star. Rick James was much less so and did more of the star partying. This paid off with Purple Rain, when Prince moved into a realm that Rick James (and most black artists) never reached.

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Reply #19 posted 11/27/18 6:22am

coldasice

eugenius said:

Depending on who you believe, Prince got the idea of Vanity 6 from Rick.


.


During the Fire it Up tour (Feb 1980 - May 1980), Rick mentioned an idea of a rauncy all-girl band he had to Prince.


.
According to legend, Rick told Prince sometime during the aforementioned tour -- probably early on since the friction between the two grew as the tour progressed -- that he wanted to turn his background singers, (already casually referred to by Rick and his crew as the Mary Jane Girls) into a band of their own. Prince beat him to the punch while Rick was dicking around in a weed- and cocaine-fueled daze and started demoing Hookers songs by early 1981.


.


(I am ready to be told I'm completely wrong by the official and self-appointed Prince historians who were there and witnessed the formation of The Hookers/Vanity 6 firsthand.)


No...Rick already had a girl group... The Mary Jane Girls. P apparently got the idea from them/him. How young are y’all?
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Reply #20 posted 11/27/18 12:02pm

Krystalkisses

avatar

frazetta said:

anybody catching Tales From the Tourbus doc on SHO? It's great. Prince is all over the part 2 episode of the Rick James episode. In cartoon form at that (and very era-specific with the hair). GREAT STUFF and show.



Created by Mike Judge from Beavis & Butthead fame from MTV.

[Edited 11/26/18 11:12am]



The previews look awesome. I dont have that channel but will find a way to watch it.
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Reply #21 posted 11/27/18 3:14pm

purplefam99

I think when Prince was exposed to Rick he was encouraged by the crowds enthusiasm
For “nasty” and went for it even more. Yes he was influenced by Rick James.
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Reply #22 posted 11/27/18 3:38pm

PeteSilas

rick had a masterful rapport with audiences, just listen to some of his shows, prince was always wierd and hard to relate to, he had to LEARN how to relate to an audience and no doubt, he learned a lot from James.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #23 posted 11/27/18 4:22pm

modified

I think people underestimate the influence Kid Creole and the Coconuts had on Prince - didn't he spend time in New York in the late 1970s and maybe up to 1980/81?

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Reply #24 posted 11/27/18 4:26pm

PeteSilas

modified said:

I think people underestimate the influence Kid Creole and the Coconuts had on Prince - didn't he spend time in New York in the late 1970s and maybe up to 1980/81?

He liked them, I always thought Morris' character was based on Kid. He was really, really good, prince gave him a good song, 4 the sex of it but for some reason, Kid Creole never caught on fire here in the states.

Prince.org: With fans like these he didn't need haters.
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Reply #25 posted 11/27/18 6:15pm

oceanblue

1725topp said:

Of course, Rick James was bitter about Prince becoming more popular than him, especially when Rick's career started more popular than Prince's career. However, Rick's bitterness does not void that fact that, even in some small ways, Rick influenced Prince. Prince didn't land from space fully complete as the superstar he became. And, people like Rick James and others influence him in various ways. I just find it hilarious that the same folks who find it impossible that Prince could be influenced by Rick also completely blame Larry Graham for Prince's demise. So, let me get this straight. Prince was too mentally strong and creative to be influenced by Rick but not by Graham. Hilarious. Man, y'all mofos are more entertaining than tv.

Man, Rick James hated Prince with a passion! lol

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Reply #26 posted 11/27/18 6:48pm

endiadj

Everyone is influenced by someone. Many artists probably influenced Prince. I'm sure Rick was influenced by others too. And artists at the time and today we're/are influenced by Prince and Rick. No big deal.
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Reply #27 posted 11/28/18 5:11am

PURPLEIZED3121

PeteSilas said:

modified said:

I think people underestimate the influence Kid Creole and the Coconuts had on Prince - didn't he spend time in New York in the late 1970s and maybe up to 1980/81?

He liked them, I always thought Morris' character was based on Kid. He was really, really good, prince gave him a good song, 4 the sex of it but for some reason, Kid Creole never caught on fire here in the states.

christ how funky is THAT!

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Reply #28 posted 11/28/18 6:16am

MotownSubdivis
ion

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Rick definitely influenced P image-wise. Prince didn't copy him verbatim but a lot of his on-stage mannerisms, expressions and wardrobe choices were inspired by those of Rick's.

I'm also pretty sure the Mary Jane Girls as a concept existed well before and inspired the creation of Vanity 6. I also heard that Rick planned on starring in a movie he had in his head (Alice in Ghettoland was the working title I believe). Idk if it was supposed to be a semi-biopic like Purple Rain but if that is in fact true then Prince's greatest success is owed in some part to Rick.
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Reply #29 posted 11/28/18 10:59am

HatrinaHaterwi
tz

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PeteSilas said:

modified said:

I think people underestimate the influence Kid Creole and the Coconuts had on Prince - didn't he spend time in New York in the late 1970s and maybe up to 1980/81?

He liked them, I always thought Morris' character was based on Kid. He was really, really good, prince gave him a good song, 4 the sex of it but for some reason, Kid Creole never caught on fire here in the states.

A damn good song that I personally think Prince should have released himself. I've heard Prince's version and to me the released version by Kid Creole was just plain limp in comparison of how it should have been done. shrug

"Those that KNEW the number and didn't call...FUCK ALL Y'ALL!"
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