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Reply #90 posted 02/05/19 5:52am

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


We just gave you context about the situation. You can ask a socialist party supporter who voted this government in. Who were not fighting the state forces. Those people fighting state force are lynching black people in the street. So ask government voters what they think about this. A Chavista perhaps.

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Oh, I understand your context only too well.
listen to all sides, not just one side, not just your spin.


.




Only opposition supporters are rioting.
At these riots the racial, political and class nature of thier opposition plays out ends in some of them finding a random ”chavista” to kill.

The majority who voted for the socialist party know that the opposition supported the sanctions that destroyed their whole country.
The socialist party also won’t allow the opposition party to sell the natural resource industry to another country.
Indegenious and African peoples make over 60% of the population.
As 2freaky said the economy is mixed like Norway or Sweden.
the sanctions that the opposition supported destroyed both the private and state industries as it stops them from trading at all.




Anyway, here’s a report at one of these opposition riots and about the state violence for you then.








.
[Edited 2/5/19 6:41am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #91 posted 02/05/19 12:26pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Oh, I understand your context only too well. listen to all sides, not just one side, not just your spin.

.

Only opposition supporters are rioting. At these riots the racial, political and class nature of thier opposition plays out ends in some of them finding a random ”chavista” to kill. The majority who voted for the socialist party know that the opposition supported the sanctions that destroyed their whole country. The socialist party also won’t allow the opposition party to sell the natural resource industry to another country. Indegenious and African peoples make over 60% of the population. As 2freaky said the economy is mixed like Norway or Sweden. the sanctions that the opposition supported destroyed both the private and state industries as it stops them from trading at all. Anyway, here’s a report at one of these opposition riots and about the state violence for you then.

. [Edited 2/5/19 6:41am]

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You are being dishonest with dates again. You video starts about when the National Assembly was suspended. This was temporary and only done because the majority of the country voted so strongly against Maduro, they achieved a super majority in 2015: A super majority only occurs where the population has a strong majority in favour of one party - in this case the opposition, not Maduro's. In 2016 the National Assembly was temporarily suspensed and the replacement supreme court judges Maduro appointed removed four elected member of parliament to remove that super majorty (leaving just a very strong majority). Maduro then rewrote the consitution to take power away from those elected to parliament, arrested potential challengers, banned opposition parties and many of the remainder boycotted the next presidential elections. Following this, he "won" that election with only about half the number voting as in prior elections. The reason they did not vote - lack of trust in the Maduro's cheating of the system.

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When did the riots you keep discussing occur: 2014 and 2017. Why can't you discuss 2019 - It is the point of your topic.

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This is from Venezuela about January 2019 from a socialist collective that considers the actions of self appointed president illegal:

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SurGentes is a human rights collective that for the last four years has been working with popular organisations in San Agustin del Sur, Venezuela and elsewhere. This includes a group of women in the collective who do the direct work in the poor quarter, and they do it with a lot of passion and revolutionary spirit. Here is what SurGentes is saying about the at least 28 deaths just in three days last month (21-24 Jan):

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3. With the available data, it is possible to identify some irregularities in the demonstrations that occurred between January 21 and 24, 2019 and their public control:

  • At least 38 percent of the protests were violent and 28.5 percent of them saw confrontations with security forces, with firearms and blunt objects used. One of the people killed is a Second Sergeant of the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB) and two members of this organisation were beaten by protesters in Chacao (east Caracas), constituting a lynching attempt, with their motorcycles being burned. There are several security officials wounded and several government offices in different parts of the country have been burned.

  • In 42.8 percent of the cases, it is alleged that the action of state security forces was responsible for the killings. The Bolivarian National Police (in particular its special forces command, FAES) is the body most denounced, followed by the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB). In the rest of the cases, information is lacking about the possible perpetrators or civilians who have been accused (business owners who defend their property and committed killings, civilian supporters of the government or pro-opposition protesters).

  • Almost all of these deaths occurred in poor areas.

  • The high number of protester deaths (both in peaceful and violent protests) indicates that security forces have departed from progressive and differential standards of the use of force.

  • We have seen direct testimony concerning police actions following the protests, where the FAES has illegally entered homes, threatened and abused people.

4. The background of repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis.

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Note the bolded sections: The socialists in Venezuela disagree with you that all the violence and racism is by opposition protestors. They blame firstly Maduro's secuirty forces and share the rest of the blame between government supporters, opposition supporters and others.

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It is only people like you who don't similarly share the blame to where it comes from: Far left media outlets, such as the Green Left Weekly have shortened this statement by SerGentes to only discuss the red highlighted sections because the rest is about the systemic violence by and for the president.

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Why won't you condemn what the people in Venzuela are condeming: That is the violence by the far right opposed to Maduro, the far left supporting Maduro and Maduro's security forces? Why won't you stand up for the poor of all races, genders, orientations and religions if the violence is by your side?

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I really don't know what the point of percentage make up the population is - it is racist and wrong: According to an autosomal DNA genetic study conducted in 2008 by the University of Brasília (UNB), the composition of Venezuela's gene pool is 61% of european contribution, 23% of indigenous contribution, and 16% of African contribution.[3]


Ethnic groups

(2011[1])

[Edited 2/5/19 12:32pm]

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Reply #92 posted 02/06/19 2:08am

hausofmoi7

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Post colonial/slavery Venezuela up until Chávez still had a form of white supremacy.
Afro-indegenious population made up the majority.
which also include what you call on your spectrum “mixed race”.
who post slavery and colonialism were also considered “non white” and like all other various indegenious and Afro admixtures in Venezuela who made up the population which were subjugated by Europeans.
Pre Chavez this post colonial/slavery black and indegenious population were still the majority in Venezuela and were ruled by a white European minority.
Much like the dynamic that played out in South Africa where a small minority ruled over a majority.

Chavez wasn’t a communist.
But he is what you consider far left socialist/Marxist like in parts of Europe.
He ran within thier existing democracy and expanded the existing system to include the 60% who were excluded and now make up 60% of the expanded Venzuela.
Chavez identified as Afro-indegenious and his idol was Simón Bolívar an indegenious and anti colonialist.
Which is how he expanded Venezuelas system by taking back ownership of the resources to achieve this.
That’s why there have been so many race lynchings of “chavistas” (anyone non white) by opposition supporters who oppose Chavismo.


The 60% of the population that are indegenious & Afro-mesitizo make up a large part of the post Chavez/bolivarian expansion of Venezuela’s political system and are directly affected by the sanctions as the sanctions target those who are not elites or rich.
The bolivarian government have increased wages 100x to try and offset the ongoing sanctions and blockade against them.
This wouldn’t happen in a capitalist system


Here:
https://www.google.com.au...-0008.html
https://www.google.com.au...me-in-2018

The sanctions are designed to destroy the expansion/reforms Chavez made.

Those protesting are supporting the sanctions on behalf of elites who want to make Venezuela Great Again.


That’s how class and race plays out in post Bolivarian Venezuela.






.
[Edited 2/6/19 4:17am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #93 posted 02/06/19 3:00am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

Post colonial and slavery Venezuela up until Chávez was a form of white supremacy. Black, indegenious make a majority metzitzo population who post slavery and colonialism were undesirables or non white like all other indegenious and Afro admixtures. Pre Chavez the black and indegenious population post slavery and colonialism were the majority population were ruled by white European minority. Much like the dynamic that played out in South Africa where a small minority ruled over a majority. Chavez wasn’t even a communist. He was just what you consider far left socialist/Marxist like in parts of Europe. He ran within thier existing democracy and expanded the existing system to include the 60% who were excluded and now make up 60% of the expanded Venzuela. Chavez identified as Afro-indegenious and his idol was Simón Bolívar an indegenious and anti colonialist. Which is why he expanded Venezuela by taking back ownership of the resources. That’s why there have been so many race lynchings of “chavistas” by opposition supporters. Since 60% of the population are indegenious & Afro-mesitizo. They make up a large part of the post Chavez expansion of Venezuela’s political system. So they are directly targeted by the sanctions. As the sanctions target those outside who are not elites or rich. The bolivarian government have increased wages 100x to offset the sanctions. Here: https://www.google.com.au...-0008.html https://www.google.com.au...me-in-2018 Im sure that is considered “far left”. The sanctions are designed to destroy the expansion/reforms Chavez made. Those protesting are supporting the sanctions on behalf of elites who want to make Venezuela Great Again. That’s how class and race plays out in post Bolivarian Venezuela. . [Edited 2/6/19 2:27am]

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But Venezuela is in the Maduro post Chávez era and we are not talking about the previous riots but the 2019 presidential crisis and the potential coup. Raising wages is not making anyone better off or even helping them eat. It is only causing hyper-inflation. Increasing wages by 100X is nothing compared to an inflation rate in Dec 2018 of 1,700,000% year on year. The population is falling as more and more become refugees in nearby countries just to survive.

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No one is disputing the abuses of the past, but the people of Venezuela are currently more concerned about the more recent abuses this year.

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This is why the socialists in Venezuela are saying things like "The background of repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis."

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This is not the local socialists being concerned about the anti-government protestors - it is them recognising that the greatest anti-class and anti-race threats the poor currently face is from the president's security forces. This is how the Venezuelan socialists actively working to help the poor see the how race and class is actually playing out in Maduro's Venezuela in 2019.

.

Which brings me back to the question you won't answer: Why won't you condemn what the people in Venzuela are condeming: That is the violence by the far right opposed to Maduro, the far left supporting Maduro and Maduro's security forces? Why won't you stand up for the poor of all races, genders, orientations and religions when the violence is by primarily by your side in 2019?

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Reply #94 posted 02/06/19 4:49am

hausofmoi7

avatar

The inflation ties in with the blockade and sanctions which is why they are raising wages constantly.
Just lift the sanctions and blockade.
Venezuela’s bolivarian movement and thier voters are not going to sell thier resources and reverse the revolution.



.
[Edited 2/6/19 4:54am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #95 posted 02/06/19 11:14am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

The inflation ties in with the blockade and sanctions which is why they are raising wages constantly. Just lift the sanctions and blockade. Venezuela’s bolivarian movement and thier voters are not going to sell thier resources and reverse the revolution. . [Edited 2/6/19 4:54am]

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No, that does not make sense. What other country has had hyper-inflation at the levels under Maduro just because of sanctions? Not South Africa, not Cuba, not North Korea, not Myanmar, not Iraq. Zimbabwe had sanctions and hyperinflation but the hyperinflation was because of the systematic destruction of the economy from within, the sanctions merely coincided with this. Germany had hyperinflation, but this was not because of sanctions; it was because it just printed additional money to pay the war reparations, kind of like thinking you ease economic problems by just increasing wages by 100x.

.

You are still ignoring that the voters in the last free election voted overwhelmingly against Maduro and elected a supermajority to the opposition - Maduro only survived by changing the supreme court judges so they would sack 4 people elected to the National Assembly so the supermajority rules could not be used to overrule a president, re-writing the consitution to increase his personal power and reduce the powers of the democratically elected parliament, imprisoning potential presidential alternatives, banning opposition parties and creating a new electoral system that resulted in poliitcal parties boycotting the election. So only about half of the people voted in Maduro's last presidential election compared to those who voted in the election that gave a super-majority to the opposition because the people of Venevuela no longer trusted the electoral system. In short: Maduro heads an undemocratic dictatorship - he has already killed the revolution.

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The other thing you have never responded to is that real socialist collectives in Venezeula who actvitly work for the poor (rather than just for the president) are saying the greatest threat in 2019 to the poor and non-white communities is the classists and racist attacks by Maduro's security forces. Where is you anger against this?

.

Which brings me back to the question you won't answer: Why won't you condemn what the people in Venzuela are condeming: That is the violence by the far right opposed to Maduro, the far left supporting Maduro and Maduro's security forces? Why won't you stand up for the poor of all races, genders, orientations and religions when the violence is by primarily by your side in 2019?

.

We have been here before: you refused to condemn the racist physical and economic attacks against the ultra-poor and marginalised black communities in Cuba because you have a "soft spot" for the Cuban Government.

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Reply #96 posted 02/08/19 4:53am

hausofmoi7

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When people falsely claim that Venezuela is authoritarian it’s always from a position that is “far right”.
Venezuela has gun laws which people previously tried to claim was authoritarian and undemocratic.

Imagine what the situation would be like had this not been the case?
They are already lynching coloured people and pro-government supporters in the street.


Racist Mobs Lynch, Set Fire to Venezuelans with Brown Skin, Assuming Them Chavistas

https://www.liberationnew...chavistas/





.
[Edited 2/8/19 8:42am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #97 posted 02/08/19 12:36pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

When people falsely claim that Venezuela is authoritarian it’s always from a position that is “far right”. Venezuela has gun laws which people previously tried to claim was authoritarian and undemocratic. Imagine what the situation would be like had this not been the case? They are already lynching coloured people and pro-government supporters in the street. Racist Mobs Lynch, Set Fire to Venezuelans with Brown Skin, Assuming Them Chavistas https://www.liberationnew...chavistas/ . [Edited 2/8/19 8:42am]

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Yet again you post about the previous riots and provide links to old articles. This is dishonest: you set the topic as being about 2019. It is a lie that the only people that are questioning the extreme actions of Maduro and his security forces against the poor and marginalised in Venezuea are only far right people. It is shameful to seek to dismiss the Maduro's authoritarian violence in this way and to do it you keep on avoiding the statements of real, actual sociatlst collectives woking with the poor and marginalised in Venevuela in 2019:

.

3. With the available data, it is possible to identify some irregularities in the demonstrations that occurred between January 21 and 24, 2019 and their public control:

  • At least 38 percent of the protests were violent and 28.5 percent of them saw confrontations with security forces, with firearms and blunt objects used. One of the people killed is a Second Sergeant of the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB) and two members of this organisation were beaten by protesters in Chacao (east Caracas), constituting a lynching attempt, with their motorcycles being burned. There are several security officials wounded and several government offices in different parts of the country have been burned.

  • In 42.8 percent of the cases, it is alleged that the action of state security forces was responsible for the killings. The Bolivarian National Police (in particular its special forces command, FAES) is the body most denounced, followed by the Bolivarian National Guard (GNB). In the rest of the cases, information is lacking about the possible perpetrators or civilians who have been accused (business owners who defend their property and committed killings, civilian supporters of the government or pro-opposition protesters).

  • Almost all of these deaths occurred in poor areas.

  • The high number of protester deaths (both in peaceful and violent protests) indicates that security forces have departed from progressive and differential standards of the use of force.

  • We have seen direct testimony concerning police actions following the protests, where the FAES has illegally entered homes, threatened and abused people.

4. The background of repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis.

.

That you cannot condemn and you even seek to cover up classist and racist physical and economic violence and abuse against the poor and marginalised in Venzuela and Cuba is deplorable. You have been asked to condemn this many times, but. like Trump, for you playing partisan politics trumps humanity.

[Edited 2/9/19 13:40pm]

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Reply #98 posted 02/09/19 5:09pm

hausofmoi7

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Nicolás Maduro: An Open Letter to the People of the United States

https://blackallianceforp...itedstates


If I know anything, it is about peoples, such as you, I am a man of the people. I was born and raised in a poor neighborhood of Caracas. I forged myself in the heat of popular and union struggles in a Venezuela submerged in exclusion and inequality. I am not a tycoon, I am a worker of reason and heart, today I have the great privilege of presiding over the new Venezuela, rooted in a model of inclusive development and social equality, which was forged by Commander Hugo Chávez since 1998 inspired by the Bolivarian legacy.

We live today a historical trance. There are days that will define the future of our countries between war and peace. Your national representatives of Washington want to bring to their borders the same hatred that they planted in Vietnam. They want to invade and intervene in Venezuela - they say, as they said then - in the name of democracy and freedom. But it's not like that. The history of the usurpation of power in Venezuela is as false as the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. It is a false case, but it can have dramatic consequences for our entire region.

Venezuela is a country that, by virtue of its 1999 Constitution, has broadly expanded the participatory and protagonist democracy of the people, and that is unprecedented today, as one of the countries with the largest number of electoral processes in its last 20 years. You might not like our ideology or our appearance, but we exist and we are millions.

I address these words to the people of the United States of America to warn of the gravity and danger that intend some sectors in the White House to invade Venezuela with unpredictable consequences for my country and for the entire American region. President Donald Trump also intends to disturb noble dialogue initiatives promoted by Uruguay and Mexico with the support of CARICOM for a peaceful solution and dialogue in favor of Venezuela. We know that for the good of Venezuela we have to sit down and talk because to refuse to dialogue is to choose strength as a way. Keep in mind the words of John F. Kennedy: "Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate". Are those who do not want to dialogue afraid of the truth?

The political intolerance towards the Venezuelan Bolivarian model and the desires for our immense oil resources, minerals, and other great riches, has prompted an international coalition headed by the US government to commit the serious insanity of militarily attacking Venezuela under the false excuse of a non-existent humanitarian crisis.

The people of Venezuela have suffered painfully social wounds caused by a criminal commercial and financial blockade, which has been aggravated by the dispossession and robbery of our financial resources and assets in countries aligned with this demented onslaught.

And yet, thanks to a new system of social protection, of direct attention to the most vulnerable sectors, we proudly continue to be a country with high human development index and lower inequality in the Americas.

The American people must know that this complex multiform aggression is carried out with total impunity and in clear violation of the Charter of the United Nations, which expressly outlaws the threat or use of force, among other principles and purposes for the sake of peace and the friendly relations between the Nations.

We want to continue being business partners of the people of the United States, as we have been throughout our history. Their politicians in Washington, on the other hand, are willing to send their sons and daughters to die in an absurd war, instead of respecting the sacred right of the Venezuelan people to self-determination and safeguarding their sovereignty.

Like you, people of the United States, we Venezuelans are patriots. And we shall defend our homeland with all the pieces of our soul. Today Venezuela is united in a single clamor: we demand the cessation of the aggression that seeks to suffocate our economy and socially suffocate our people, as well as the cessation of the serious and dangerous threats of military intervention against Venezuela. We appeal to the good soul of the American society, a victim of its own leaders, to join our call for peace, let us be all one people against warmongering and war.

Long live the peoples of America!

Nicolás Maduro
President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela




.
[Edited 2/9/19 17:17pm]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #99 posted 02/09/19 8:05pm

nd33

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


The inflation ties in with the blockade and sanctions which is why they are raising wages constantly. Just lift the sanctions and blockade. Venezuela’s bolivarian movement and thier voters are not going to sell thier resources and reverse the revolution. . [Edited 2/6/19 4:54am]

.


No, that does not make sense. What other country has had hyper-inflation at the levels under Maduro just because of sanctions? Not South Africa, not Cuba, not North Korea, not Myanmar, not Iraq. Zimbabwe had sanctions and hyperinflation but the hyperinflation was because of the systematic destruction of the economy from within, the sanctions merely coincided with this. Germany had hyperinflation, but this was not because of sanctions; it was because it just printed additional money to pay the war reparations, kind of like thinking you ease economic problems by just increasing wages by 100x.


.


You are still ignoring that the voters in the last free election voted overwhelmingly against Maduro and elected a supermajority to the opposition - Maduro only survived by changing the supreme court judges so they would sack 4 people elected to the National Assembly so the supermajority rules could not be used to overrule a president, re-writing the consitution to increase his personal power and reduce the powers of the democratically elected parliament, imprisoning potential presidential alternatives, banning opposition parties and creating a new electoral system that resulted in poliitcal parties boycotting the election. So only about half of the people voted in Maduro's last presidential election compared to those who voted in the election that gave a super-majority to the opposition because the people of Venevuela no longer trusted the electoral system. In short: Maduro heads an undemocratic dictatorship - he has already killed the revolution.


.


The other thing you have never responded to is that real socialist collectives in Venezeula who actvitly work for the poor (rather than just for the president) are saying the greatest threat in 2019 to the poor and non-white communities is the classists and racist attacks by Maduro's security forces. Where is you anger against this?


.


Which brings me back to the question you won't answer: Why won't you condemn what the people in Venzuela are condeming: That is the violence by the far right opposed to Maduro, the far left supporting Maduro and Maduro's security forces? Why won't you stand up for the poor of all races, genders, orientations and religions when the violence is by primarily by your side in 2019?


.


We have been here before: you refused to condemn the racist physical and economic attacks against the ultra-poor and marginalised black communities in Cuba because you have a "soft spot" for the Cuban Government.



Your comparisons with sanctions of other countries aren’t detailed enough to warrant any comparison at all. What is a sanction? It could be anything, from a slap on the wrist to utter annihilation. There’s every possibility that the pressure being put on Venezuela could be at the heart of what’s breaking their financial stability.
Music, sweet music, I wish I could caress and...kiss, kiss...
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Reply #100 posted 02/09/19 10:15pm

IanRG

nd33 said:

IanRG said:

.

No, that does not make sense. What other country has had hyper-inflation at the levels under Maduro just because of sanctions? Not South Africa, not Cuba, not North Korea, not Myanmar, not Iraq. Zimbabwe had sanctions and hyperinflation but the hyperinflation was because of the systematic destruction of the economy from within, the sanctions merely coincided with this. Germany had hyperinflation, but this was not because of sanctions; it was because it just printed additional money to pay the war reparations, kind of like thinking you ease economic problems by just increasing wages by 100x.

.

You are still ignoring that the voters in the last free election voted overwhelmingly against Maduro and elected a supermajority to the opposition - Maduro only survived by changing the supreme court judges so they would sack 4 people elected to the National Assembly so the supermajority rules could not be used to overrule a president, re-writing the consitution to increase his personal power and reduce the powers of the democratically elected parliament, imprisoning potential presidential alternatives, banning opposition parties and creating a new electoral system that resulted in poliitcal parties boycotting the election. So only about half of the people voted in Maduro's last presidential election compared to those who voted in the election that gave a super-majority to the opposition because the people of Venevuela no longer trusted the electoral system. In short: Maduro heads an undemocratic dictatorship - he has already killed the revolution.

.

The other thing you have never responded to is that real socialist collectives in Venezeula who actvitly work for the poor (rather than just for the president) are saying the greatest threat in 2019 to the poor and non-white communities is the classists and racist attacks by Maduro's security forces. Where is you anger against this?

.

Which brings me back to the question you won't answer: Why won't you condemn what the people in Venzuela are condeming: That is the violence by the far right opposed to Maduro, the far left supporting Maduro and Maduro's security forces? Why won't you stand up for the poor of all races, genders, orientations and religions when the violence is by primarily by your side in 2019?

.

We have been here before: you refused to condemn the racist physical and economic attacks against the ultra-poor and marginalised black communities in Cuba because you have a "soft spot" for the Cuban Government.

Your comparisons with sanctions of other countries aren’t detailed enough to warrant any comparison at all. What is a sanction? It could be anything, from a slap on the wrist to utter annihilation. There’s every possibility that the pressure being put on Venezuela could be at the heart of what’s breaking their financial stability.

.

My comparisions are to very well known trade sanctions of similar but generally more severe types of trade sanctions, not obscure and unknown types of sanctions - Don't just jump to conclusions: look it up.

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I am not just finding anything that could be called a sanction across a wide range of things from a slap on the wrist to utter annihilation and thinking they are all identical - but let's look at this range: light trade sanctions like those against Russia have not caused Venezuelan style hyperinflation. At the other extreme super massive trade sanctions like those against North Korea and South Africa also did not caused Venevuelan style hyperinflation.

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Instead of just saying there is every possibility that Venzuelan hyperinflation is caused by the trade sanctions whilst presenting no mechanism or support for this supposition, show an equivalent outcome from similar sanctions somewhere else that caused hyperinflation.

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The Venezuelan sanctions were not heavy. The initial US sanctions in 2011 were only on the state owned petroleum company and had little real impact because oil was traded with the US through another company - a slap on the wrist. These were increased in 2015 but only to extend these to being against certain businesses of Venezuelan officials - still just a slap on the wrist in line with sanctions on certain Russian businesses. The hyperinflation kicked in 2016 as a result of government policies to not control spending whilst the oil incomes fell due to operations mismanagement, corruption and changes in world fuel prices. At this point sanctions were light but the country was already destroying faith in its currency by its actions (the first common and understood cause of hyperinflation). The first of the heavier sanctions only started in 2017 after the country was spiralling out of control with increasing hyperinflation. In 2018 Venezuela started using the second common and understood cause of hyperinflation - it just started printing money to increase wages 6 times within the year to 100x what they previously were.

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Reply #101 posted 02/09/19 11:37pm

hausofmoi7

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“The price is never worth it”


Former UN rapporteur says US sanctions are killing citizens



https://www.independent.c...48201.html

Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.

Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”.




.
[Edited 2/9/19 23:49pm]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #102 posted 02/10/19 12:57am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

“The price is never worth it” Former UN rapporteur says US sanctions are killing citizens https://www.independent.c...48201.html Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans. Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”. . [Edited 2/9/19 23:49pm]

.

Yes, sanctions are a poor tool overused and they can severly impact on very people they are meant to help. This also occured in South Africa, North Korea etc and people pointed this out at the time about these sanctions. However, nothing in this says the hyperinflation and the killings by the government security forces, the protestors supporting the opposition, the protestor supporting the govenement and people protecting their property is more because of the sanctions than by the breakdown of human rights and humanitarianism within Venezuela.

.

The article mentions that Alfred de Zayas gave advice to end the sanctions among other things. It is these other things that you cannot bring yourself to condemn or even admit are a problem. As a result of his visit (yet again prior to 2019) he gave preliminary recomendations to the Venezuelan foreign minister saying:

1. The price controls need to be eliminated - the financial crisis including the hyperinflation is a result of the breakdown of pricing

.

2. The economic system is breaking down due to smuggling to circumvent the price fixing and government corruption. This needs to be fought against - but not the way it was being fought against. It should be fought against within the the rule of law.

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3 The Venezuelan government needs to respect the UN covenants on civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights. He did recognise Maduro was at that time seeking dialogue with the opposition and showing commendable flexibility and patience. However, in 2019 this has since broken down.

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4 Maduro should either release individuals who have been imprisoned for political reasons, or take them to court with a fair trial.

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5 The mismanagement of the country is because it is reliant on ideologists but it needs technocrats, not only ideologists.

.

6 The Maduro goverment needs to start taking human rights abuses seriously. It must stop government corruption at all levels. It should seek help from the UN especially the UN Office on Drugs and Crime in Vienna. In doing so, UN organizations, such as the World Health Organization, the FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization), the International Labor Organization (ILO), etc. could help to ensure that the necessary improvements are translated into action.

.

It is always important to not just take summaries of what is reported in media outlets you like. They often miss the bits that you like to ignore.

.

Still no condemnation for the violence by the Maduro security forces and supporters in the mistaken belief that it must be all from the otherside? You need to listen to the real socialists seeking to help the poor and marginalised in Venezuela

[Edited 2/10/19 2:33am]

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Reply #103 posted 02/17/19 9:44pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

Make Venezuela Great Again


Neo-nazism is Fashionable in Modern-day Venezuela

https://www.google.com.au...ezuela/amp

Venezuela is seeing troublesome manifestations of neo-Nazi sentiment and activity as never before, according to the Latin American Jewish Congress.

A report published in the group’s bulletin says that swift action by the Confederation of Jewish Associations of Venezuela succeeded in preventing a public meeting from taking place in the center of Caracas last month of a group using the swastika in pamphlets and propaganda.

Nuevo Mundo Israelita, the Venezuelan Jewish community newspaper, said that not only has it become fashionable to use Nazi symbols in clothing accessories, but many middle- and upper-class youngsters go dancing dressed in Nazi uniforms and concentration camp pajamas.

Some revisionist magazines and books have appeared, as well as Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf.”




.
[Edited 2/17/19 21:45pm]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #104 posted 02/17/19 9:59pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

Racism and the Fight over Venezuela

https://www.strategic-cul...zuela.html


The U.S. coup attempt in Venezuela is not only about oil and general U.S. imperialism. It is attempt to bring a specific type of people back into power. The same type of people that rule in Washington DC.

The Nation describes how the U.S. has long funded and manipulated the opposition in Venezuela. The Random Guy™ Juan Guaidó, who claims the presidency, was created through this process:

How Washington Funded the Counterrevolution in Venezuela
Self-declared president Juan Guaidó comes from the right-wing, US-backed student movement that tried to subvert Hugo Chávez’s government.
The piece includes this revealing sentence:

A former USAID/OTI member who helped devise US efforts in Venezuela said the “objective was that you had thousands of youth, high school, and college kids that were horrified of this Indian-looking guy in power. They were idealistic.
Being "horrified" that the "Indian-looking" Hugo Chávez was in power does not seem "idealistic". One might call it racist though.

A number of those white, well off, U.S. trained college kids joint politics in right wing parties. They wanted to take power. But to sell one of theirs as a leader of a country where the majority is mestizo was a problem.



.
[Edited 2/18/19 4:51am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #105 posted 02/18/19 2:22am

hausofmoi7

avatar

In Venezuela the opposition through the media depicted Hugo Chavez as a monkey, and supporters of the revolution that are black, brown and mixed race were also depicted as monkeys.


They also called for the president to be assassinated in the media.

All this really doesn’t add up to the narrative that Venezuela is an authoritarian regime.





.
[Edited 2/18/19 4:47am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #106 posted 02/18/19 5:10am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

Make Venezuela Great Again Neo-nazism is Fashionable in Modern-day Venezuela https://www.google.com.au...ezuela/amp Venezuela is seeing troublesome manifestations of neo-Nazi sentiment and activity as never before, according to the Latin American Jewish Congress. A report published in the group’s bulletin says that swift action by the Confederation of Jewish Associations of Venezuela succeeded in preventing a public meeting from taking place in the center of Caracas last month of a group using the swastika in pamphlets and propaganda. Nuevo Mundo Israelita, the Venezuelan Jewish community newspaper, said that not only has it become fashionable to use Nazi symbols in clothing accessories, but many middle- and upper-class youngsters go dancing dressed in Nazi uniforms and concentration camp pajamas. Some revisionist magazines and books have appeared, as well as Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf.” . [Edited 2/17/19 21:45pm]

.

You are getting increasingly desperate in your inability to condemn violence - this article is from 1992!

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Reply #107 posted 02/18/19 5:21am

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

In Venezuela the opposition through the media depicted Hugo Chavez as a monkey, and supporters of the revolution that are black, brown and mixed race were also depicted as monkeys. They also called for the president to be assassinated in the media. All this really doesn’t add up to the narrative that Venezuela is an authoritarian regime. . [Edited 2/18/19 4:47am]

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You do know Chavez is dead don't you? He died in 2013.

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The narrative of Venuzuelan violence and authoritarianism is in 2019. The sources of this include the UN guy you partially quoted and the actual socialists working for the poor in Venezuela - not the people you support who are controlling the security forces attacking the poor in greater numbers than any other group THIS YEAR. Not the people stopping food and medical aid from getting to the people who need it. Not the people that installed new judges to the high court to block the super majority and created a new post Chavez constitution to protect Maduro and allow his violence.

.

Still cannot condemn racism and violence if it comes from your side? You can be much better - all you need to do is condemn evil where ever it exists to stop the evil, not just support your political ideology against the poor and marginalised - just like you did with institutional physical and economic violence against the poor blacks in Cuba.

[Edited 2/18/19 19:21pm]

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Reply #108 posted 02/18/19 9:11pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

You ignored the last article I posted.
You did this whilst ignoring the last article I posted which was recent and highlights the right wing, racist and class based motives and nature of these attacks.
you won’t address it and that’s fine.


Sanctions are killing people. Racist opposition forces are killing people.
These protesters are using terror and violence to push thier right wing ideology

I think we are going in circles at this point as you refuse to acknowledge what is happening.




.
[Edited 2/19/19 0:13am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #109 posted 02/19/19 3:13am

hausofmoi7

avatar

Venezuela didn’t block aide.
The very people who are sanctioning Venezuela and creating the devastation delivered aide to a road which had been blocked for years and used it for a ‘photo op’.
You know that.


.
[Edited 2/19/19 3:15am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #110 posted 02/19/19 5:51am

jaawwnn

avatar

IanRG said:

hausofmoi7 said:

In Venezuela the opposition through the media depicted Hugo Chavez as a monkey, and supporters of the revolution that are black, brown and mixed race were also depicted as monkeys. They also called for the president to be assassinated in the media. All this really doesn’t add up to the narrative that Venezuela is an authoritarian regime. . [Edited 2/18/19 4:47am]

.

You do know Chavez is dead don't you? He died in 2013.

.

The narrative of Venuzuelan violence and authoritarianism is in 2019. The sources of this include the UN guy you partially quoted and the actual socialists working for the poor in Venezuela - not the people you support who are controlling the security forces attacking the poor in greater numbers than any other group THIS YEAR. Not the people stopping food and medical aid from getting to the people who need it. Not the people that installed new judges to the high court to block the super majority and created a new post Chavez constitution to protect Maduro and allow his violence.

.

Still cannot condemn racism and violence if it comes from your side? You can be much better - all you need to do is condemn evil where ever it exists to stop the evil, not just support your political ideology against the poor and marginalised - just like you did with institutional physical and economic violence against the poor blacks in Cuba.

[Edited 2/18/19 19:21pm]

Come now, even NPR admit that Venezuela isn't "blocking" aid just for fun

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/16/695154567/u-s-masses-aid-along-venezuelan-border-as-some-humanitarian-groups-warn-of-risks


Humanitarian operations are supposed to be neutral. That's why the International Committee of the Red Cross, United Nations agencies and other relief organizations have refused to collaborate with the U.S. and its allies in the Venezuelan opposition who are trying to force President Nicolás Maduro from power.

Whatever the problems in Venezuela, and it seems there are many, forcing regime change will end very badly for the people in Venezuela. Source: the last 50 years of US foreign policy.

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Reply #111 posted 02/19/19 4:20pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

You ignored the last article I posted. You did this whilst ignoring the last article I posted which was recent and highlights the right wing, racist and class based motives and nature of these attacks. you won’t address it and that’s fine. Sanctions are killing people. Racist opposition forces are killing people. These protesters are using terror and violence to push thier right wing ideology I think we are going in circles at this point as you refuse to acknowledge what is happening. . [Edited 2/19/19 0:13am]

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Wow, after more than 100 posts in this thread wiith me pointing out that your links are deceptively old and always only ever address the violence by the side your are ideologically opposed to as justification for the 2019 violence, you finllay posted one that is from 2019.

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I did not address this article because I am not going circles and it added nothing new to the discussion that I had not already said. I am comdemning all the violence, you are limiting your condemnation to just that by the other side of your ideological bias. You ignored the reports by Amnesty International. When you told me to talk to real socialists in Venezuala, you did not know about the report from actual real socialists in Venezuela in 2019 that was condemning the violence by the Maduro security forces, describing it as "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis". THis does not mean I support other violence today or violence by others in the past - your lack of response to this means it is you who is refusing to acknowledge what is happening. The biggest group attacking the poor and marginalised by the figures from the poor and marginalised is the Maduro's security forces. This does not excuse or ignore the violence by the far right. It does not justify sanctions and certanly not regime change.

.

You can do better - condemn the violence by the far left in 2019 with as much vigour as condemn the violence by the far right - stop selling out the poor and marginalised to your ideology.

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Reply #112 posted 02/19/19 4:30pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

Venezuela didn’t block aide. The very people who are sanctioning Venezuela and creating the devastation delivered aide to a road which had been blocked for years and used it for a ‘photo op’. You know that. . [Edited 2/19/19 3:15am]

.

Don't tell me: The words stated by Maduro about refusing the aid, these were also from the people imposing the sanctions?

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Reply #113 posted 02/19/19 4:31pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

jaawwnn said:



IanRG said:




hausofmoi7 said:


In Venezuela the opposition through the media depicted Hugo Chavez as a monkey, and supporters of the revolution that are black, brown and mixed race were also depicted as monkeys. They also called for the president to be assassinated in the media. All this really doesn’t add up to the narrative that Venezuela is an authoritarian regime. . [Edited 2/18/19 4:47am]

.


You do know Chavez is dead don't you? He died in 2013.


.


The narrative of Venuzuelan violence and authoritarianism is in 2019. The sources of this include the UN guy you partially quoted and the actual socialists working for the poor in Venezuela - not the people you support who are controlling the security forces attacking the poor in greater numbers than any other group THIS YEAR. Not the people stopping food and medical aid from getting to the people who need it. Not the people that installed new judges to the high court to block the super majority and created a new post Chavez constitution to protect Maduro and allow his violence.


.


Still cannot condemn racism and violence if it comes from your side? You can be much better - all you need to do is condemn evil where ever it exists to stop the evil, not just support your political ideology against the poor and marginalised - just like you did with institutional physical and economic violence against the poor blacks in Cuba.


[Edited 2/18/19 19:21pm]



Come now, even NPR admit that Venezuela isn't "blocking" aid just for fun

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/16/695154567/u-s-masses-aid-along-venezuelan-border-as-some-humanitarian-groups-warn-of-risks


Humanitarian operations are supposed to be neutral. That's why the International Committee of the Red Cross, United Nations agencies and other relief organizations have refused to collaborate with the U.S. and its allies in the Venezuelan opposition who are trying to force President Nicolás Maduro from power.

Whatever the problems in Venezuela, and it seems there are many, forcing regime change will end very badly for the people in Venezuela. Source: the last 50 years of US foreign policy.


He knows at this point.
Just Drumming up support for war by acting dumb.



.
[Edited 2/19/19 16:35pm]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #114 posted 02/19/19 4:50pm

IanRG

jaawwnn said:

IanRG said:

.

You do know Chavez is dead don't you? He died in 2013.

.

The narrative of Venuzuelan violence and authoritarianism is in 2019. The sources of this include the UN guy you partially quoted and the actual socialists working for the poor in Venezuela - not the people you support who are controlling the security forces attacking the poor in greater numbers than any other group THIS YEAR. Not the people stopping food and medical aid from getting to the people who need it. Not the people that installed new judges to the high court to block the super majority and created a new post Chavez constitution to protect Maduro and allow his violence.

.

Still cannot condemn racism and violence if it comes from your side? You can be much better - all you need to do is condemn evil where ever it exists to stop the evil, not just support your political ideology against the poor and marginalised - just like you did with institutional physical and economic violence against the poor blacks in Cuba.

[Edited 2/18/19 19:21pm]

Come now, even NPR admit that Venezuela isn't "blocking" aid just for fun

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/16/695154567/u-s-masses-aid-along-venezuelan-border-as-some-humanitarian-groups-warn-of-risks


Humanitarian operations are supposed to be neutral. That's why the International Committee of the Red Cross, United Nations agencies and other relief organizations have refused to collaborate with the U.S. and its allies in the Venezuelan opposition who are trying to force President Nicolás Maduro from power.

Whatever the problems in Venezuela, and it seems there are many, forcing regime change will end very badly for the people in Venezuela. Source: the last 50 years of US foreign policy.

.

Come now what?

.

Read your article: I am opposed to aid being restricted by either side and support the International Committee of the Red Cross in seeking to allow more aid than what Maduro is limiting this to by his blocking and without any US strings attached.

.

Read the post you are responding to: It says nothing about me supporting the either side politically, just that my source is neither the political spin by the US or the Venezuelan governments: It is from the full reports by socialists in Venzuela (not the edited version being quoted) and from the full advice by Alfred de Zayas when he worked for the UN on Venzuela. Aid should never be a political bargaining chip and both sides are doing this according to your article: both at the expense of the poor and marginalised just for ideological reasons.

.

Read my other posts here: I have never supported US forced regime change as a solution to violence and failure of the Venzeulan government under Maduro - or pretty much anywhere they have been in the last 50 years.

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Reply #115 posted 02/19/19 4:51pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



hausofmoi7 said:


Venezuela didn’t block aide. The very people who are sanctioning Venezuela and creating the devastation delivered aide to a road which had been blocked for years and used it for a ‘photo op’. You know that. . [Edited 2/19/19 3:15am]

.


Don't tell me: The words stated by Maduro about refusing the aid, these were also from the people imposing the sanctions?



YOu ignored the last article because it contradicts everything you are saying about this situation.
Including the class and race aspect you are desperate to hide.
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #116 posted 02/19/19 4:55pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

jaawwnn said:

Come now, even NPR admit that Venezuela isn't "blocking" aid just for fun

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/16/695154567/u-s-masses-aid-along-venezuelan-border-as-some-humanitarian-groups-warn-of-risks


Humanitarian operations are supposed to be neutral. That's why the International Committee of the Red Cross, United Nations agencies and other relief organizations have refused to collaborate with the U.S. and its allies in the Venezuelan opposition who are trying to force President Nicolás Maduro from power.

Whatever the problems in Venezuela, and it seems there are many, forcing regime change will end very badly for the people in Venezuela. Source: the last 50 years of US foreign policy.

He knows at this point. Just Drumming up support for war by acting dumb. . [Edited 2/19/19 16:35pm]

.

That is a lie and you know it.

.

Show one statement from me that is supporting war. ALL MY POSTS have been anti-violence and they started with rejection of forced regime change.

.

Be better than this: join with me and condemn the violence by the Maduro security forces, the supporters of Maduro, the supporters of the Venezeulan opposition and seek a peaceful solution - not just push your ideology from afar.

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Reply #117 posted 02/19/19 4:57pm

hausofmoi7

avatar

IanRG said:



jaawwnn said:




IanRG said:



.


You do know Chavez is dead don't you? He died in 2013.


.


The narrative of Venuzuelan violence and authoritarianism is in 2019. The sources of this include the UN guy you partially quoted and the actual socialists working for the poor in Venezuela - not the people you support who are controlling the security forces attacking the poor in greater numbers than any other group THIS YEAR. Not the people stopping food and medical aid from getting to the people who need it. Not the people that installed new judges to the high court to block the super majority and created a new post Chavez constitution to protect Maduro and allow his violence.


.


Still cannot condemn racism and violence if it comes from your side? You can be much better - all you need to do is condemn evil where ever it exists to stop the evil, not just support your political ideology against the poor and marginalised - just like you did with institutional physical and economic violence against the poor blacks in Cuba.


[Edited 2/18/19 19:21pm]



Come now, even NPR admit that Venezuela isn't "blocking" aid just for fun

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/16/695154567/u-s-masses-aid-along-venezuelan-border-as-some-humanitarian-groups-warn-of-risks


Humanitarian operations are supposed to be neutral. That's why the International Committee of the Red Cross, United Nations agencies and other relief organizations have refused to collaborate with the U.S. and its allies in the Venezuelan opposition who are trying to force President Nicolás Maduro from power.

Whatever the problems in Venezuela, and it seems there are many, forcing regime change will end very badly for the people in Venezuela. Source: the last 50 years of US foreign policy.



.


Come now what?


.


Read your article: I am opposed to aid being restricted by either side and support the International Committee of the Red Cross in seeking to allow more aid than what Maduro is limiting this to by his blocking and without any US strings attached.


.


Read the post you are responding to: It says nothing about me supporting the either side politically, just that my source is neither the political spin by the US or the Venezuelan governments: It is from the full reports by socialists in Venzuela (not the edited version being quoted) and from the full advice by Alfred de Zayas when he worked for the UN on Venzuela. Aid should never be a political bargaining chip and both sides are doing this according to your article: both at the expense of the poor and marginalised just for ideological reasons.


.


Read my other posts here: I have never supported US forced regime change as a solution to violence and failure of the Venzeulan government under Maduro - or pretty much anywhere they have been in the last 50 years.




Why does u.s even get to be “the other side” in another country?!
Lift the sanctions and let Venezuela buy and sell.

There is nothing more to add.
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #118 posted 02/19/19 5:04pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Don't tell me: The words stated by Maduro about refusing the aid, these were also from the people imposing the sanctions?

YOu ignored the last article because it contradicts everything you are saying about this situation. Including the class and race aspect you are desperate to hide.

.

This responce was to yuur false claim about Maduro not seeking to limit aid.

.

Did Maduro make public statements about refusing aid? Yes he did and you are ignoring this.

.

Have I repeatedly pointed out that the actual, real socialists working to help the poor and marginalised are saying that Maduro's security forces are following "repressive and systematic practices in poor sectors (extrajudicial executions, illegal raids, torture and ill-treatment, threats) in the last five years by the PNB and other security forces, as well as the high number of deaths occurring in just four days, shows that state security bodies are fixed in a pattern of class-based and racist actions, that has been consolidated since 2013. The poor areas are seen as occupied territories and populations which need containing, all in a context of a growing socio-economic and political crisis

.

I am hiding nothing and it is not me seeking to ignore one side just for remote political ideological reasons. Read the part in red and remember it comes from Venezuelan socialists working for the poor and marginalised. Show me where this is ignoring the class and race issues?

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Reply #119 posted 02/19/19 5:17pm

IanRG

hausofmoi7 said:

IanRG said:

.

Come now what?

.

Read your article: I am opposed to aid being restricted by either side and support the International Committee of the Red Cross in seeking to allow more aid than what Maduro is limiting this to by his blocking and without any US strings attached.

.

Read the post you are responding to: It says nothing about me supporting the either side politically, just that my source is neither the political spin by the US or the Venezuelan governments: It is from the full reports by socialists in Venzuela (not the edited version being quoted) and from the full advice by Alfred de Zayas when he worked for the UN on Venzuela. Aid should never be a political bargaining chip and both sides are doing this according to your article: both at the expense of the poor and marginalised just for ideological reasons.

.

Read my other posts here: I have never supported US forced regime change as a solution to violence and failure of the Venzeulan government under Maduro - or pretty much anywhere they have been in the last 50 years.

Why does u.s even get to be “the other side” in another country?! Lift the sanctions and let Venezuela buy and sell. There is nothing more to add.

.

And there in lies the problem. You cannot condemn your side's violence, even when the source of information about the violence is from your side: Amnesty International, socialist collectives in Venezuela and Alfred de Zayas.

.

The only way to stop the violence (physical or economic) is to condemn it regardless of its political objective and source. You need to stand up for all people, not just your politics at the expense of people.

.

You want to pretend I support the sanctions but you know you are being dishonest by falsely making this claim. I made my postion clear in my first post and you said it was great that I oppose the US intervention from then on it has just been spin, humanitarian-less spin.

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