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Thread started 10/10/18 5:42am

CherryMoon57

Ashers 'gay cake' row: Bakers win Supreme Court appeal


BBC Northern Ireland


  • 31 minutes ago


'The Christian owners of a Northern Ireland bakery have won their appeal in the so-called "gay cake" discrimination case.

The UK's highest court ruled that Ashers bakery's refusal to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage was not discriminatory.

The five justices on the Supreme Court were unanimous in their judgement.

The high-profile dispute began in 2014 when the bakery refused to make a cake with the slogan "Support Gay Marriage".'

Read more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/new...d-45789759

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Reply #1 posted 10/10/18 7:12am

poppys

Wow, quite a donnybrook as my mother would say. Interesting that the Supremes basically split the hair down the middle saying the gay man was not refused service for being gay. That it's basically the theme of the cake's fault. LOL. That was convenient. Hope theme cakes don't have feelings...

What could the ramifications be?

Some will regard the ruling - that service providers of any religion, race or sexual orientation can refuse to endorse a message they profoundly disagree with - as a victory for freedom of expression and freedom of ideas, says BBC legal correspondent Clive Coleman.

The ruling now poses the question whether it would be lawful, for instance, for a bakery to refuse to make a bar mitzvah cake because the bakers' owners disagreed with ideas at the heart of the Jewish religion? What about a cake promoting "the glory of Brexit", "support fox hunting", or "support veganism"?

As a result of Wednesday's ruling, there are likely to be further cases in which services are refused on the basis of beliefs held by the service providers, adds our correspondent.

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Reply #2 posted 10/10/18 7:25am

maplenpg

poppys said:

Wow, quite a donnybrook as my mother would say. Interesting that the Supremes basically split the hair down the middle saying the gay man was not refused service for being gay. That it's basically the theme of the cake's fault. LOL. That was convenient. Hope theme cakes don't have feelings...

What could the ramifications be?

Some will regard the ruling - that service providers of any religion, race or sexual orientation can refuse to endorse a message they profoundly disagree with - as a victory for freedom of expression and freedom of ideas, says BBC legal correspondent Clive Coleman.

The ruling now poses the question whether it would be lawful, for instance, for a bakery to refuse to make a bar mitzvah cake because the bakers' owners disagreed with ideas at the heart of the Jewish religion? What about a cake promoting "the glory of Brexit", "support fox hunting", or "support veganism"?

As a result of Wednesday's ruling, there are likely to be further cases in which services are refused on the basis of beliefs held by the service providers, adds our correspondent.

I think from what I've seen on the news today that they are saying that owners have a right to refuse a cake that promotes a political message that they disagree with. So, to address your questions the bar mitzvah cake would have to be allowed, whereas the others wouldn't. Hence they weren't discriminating against the customer because of his sexual orientation, but they were refusing to support the message of supporting gay marriage.

I think if they had refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple then they would have been found to be in the wrong, but because the 'support gay marriage' slogan has a political message attached, the bakers have the right to stand by their political beliefs.


I'm by no means certain on all this so if anyone stands to correct me then please do. FWIW, as a small business owner, I think they should have just made the cake. But I do see it's wider implications.

It never ceases to amaze me how cruel humans can be against fellow humans and animals, especially when in the pursuit of money and power.
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Reply #3 posted 10/10/18 7:37am

jaawwnn

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Honestly, I think they have every right to refuse to bake a cake for whatever reason.

I also think their neighbours have the right to run them out of town, or at least out of business, and they should exercise that right. Boycott them for life, don't serve them in your shop, don't deliver mail to them etc.

[Edited 10/10/18 7:40am]

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Reply #4 posted 10/10/18 8:08am

poppys

maplenpg said:

poppys said:

Wow, quite a donnybrook as my mother would say. Interesting that the Supremes basically split the hair down the middle saying the gay man was not refused service for being gay. That it's basically the theme of the cake's fault. LOL. That was convenient. Hope theme cakes don't have feelings...

What could the ramifications be?

Some will regard the ruling - that service providers of any religion, race or sexual orientation can refuse to endorse a message they profoundly disagree with - as a victory for freedom of expression and freedom of ideas, says BBC legal correspondent Clive Coleman.

The ruling now poses the question whether it would be lawful, for instance, for a bakery to refuse to make a bar mitzvah cake because the bakers' owners disagreed with ideas at the heart of the Jewish religion? What about a cake promoting "the glory of Brexit", "support fox hunting", or "support veganism"?

As a result of Wednesday's ruling, there are likely to be further cases in which services are refused on the basis of beliefs held by the service providers, adds our correspondent.

I think from what I've seen on the news today that they are saying that owners have a right to refuse a cake that promotes a political message that they disagree with. So, to address your questions the bar mitzvah cake would have to be allowed, whereas the others wouldn't. Hence they weren't discriminating against the customer because of his sexual orientation, but they were refusing to support the message of supporting gay marriage.

I think if they had refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple then they would have been found to be in the wrong, but because the 'support gay marriage' slogan has a political message attached, the bakers have the right to stand by their political beliefs.


I'm by no means certain on all this so if anyone stands to correct me then please do. FWIW, as a small business owner, I think they should have just made the cake. But I do see it's wider implications.


For clarity, everything I posted in italics was a cut/paste from the bbc article Cherry posted. Those are their questions.

Personally, I think it was a work around decision to a sticky (sorry) situation - clever. I also think the activist ordered the cake to test the law. Happens all the time. Like here in the States, Plessy vs Ferguson was supposed to clarify equal rights - instead it gave us 60+ years of Jim Crow "Separate but Equal". Obviously the USSC was WRONG on that one.

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Reply #5 posted 10/10/18 9:48am

EmmaMcG

They didn't do anything wrong. Their religion, like most religions, is homophobic. It goes against their religious beliefs to make that cake. It's akin to walking into a Muslim Butcher shop and asking for a couple of pork chops.
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Reply #6 posted 10/10/18 10:37am

CherryMoon57

EmmaMcG said:

They didn't do anything wrong. Their religion, like most religions, is homophobic. It goes against their religious beliefs to make that cake. It's akin to walking into a Muslim Butcher shop and asking for a couple of pork chops.


Or asking gay bakers to bake a wedding cake with 'Heterosexual Marriage Rules' written on it. wink

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Reply #7 posted 10/10/18 10:41am

poppys

But wouldn't the difference there be that Muslim butcher shops don't carry pork chops in the first place? They could just say we don't have them.

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Reply #8 posted 10/10/18 12:04pm

jaawwnn

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It's akin to walking into a Muslim bakery and asking for a gay marriage cake!

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Reply #9 posted 10/10/18 12:05pm

MoBettaBliss

poppys said:

But wouldn't the difference there be that Muslim butcher shops don't carry pork chops in the first place? They could just say we don't have them.



no

if you think that, you're completely missing Emma's point

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Reply #10 posted 10/10/18 12:07pm

MoBettaBliss

btw... the world has officially gone mad

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Reply #11 posted 10/10/18 12:15pm

EmmaMcG

poppys said:

But wouldn't the difference there be that Muslim butcher shops don't carry pork chops in the first place? They could just say we don't have them.



My point was that it goes against their religious beliefs. I don't believe in God in any form and I personally think that the idea of religion is ridiculous. But even I wouldn't go out of my way to target a Christian bakery and ask them to make me a cake that goes against their religious beliefs. Because even if I don't believe in that sort of thing, I know that some people do and they take their religion very seriously. So I'm not going to put them on the spot and ask them to give up those beliefs just so I can make a point.
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Reply #12 posted 10/10/18 12:16pm

EmmaMcG

jaawwnn said:

It's akin to walking into a Muslim bakery and asking for a gay marriage cake!



Exactly. Although nobody would do that because, well, you know...
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Reply #13 posted 10/10/18 12:56pm

poppys

jaawwnn said:

It's akin to walking into a Muslim bakery and asking for a gay marriage cake!


We had a similar case here with a bakery that refused to make a gay wedding cake (groom & groom). SCOTUS ruled the same as the Lords and Ladies. Still, activists will challenge laws. That's the only way they get changed for better or worse, depending on who you are.

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Reply #14 posted 10/10/18 1:19pm

NorthC

EmmaMcG said:

They didn't do anything wrong. Their religion, like most religions, is homophobic. It goes against their religious beliefs to make that cake. It's akin to walking into a Muslim Butcher shop and asking for a couple of pork chops.

Where I live we actually have a shop with that name. It's called Moslim Slagerij which means Muslim Butchery. I love it how they don't seem to get the joke behind this...
[Edited 10/10/18 13:24pm]
lol
[Edited 10/10/18 13:26pm]
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
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Reply #15 posted 10/10/18 1:33pm

CherryMoon57

EmmaMcG said:

poppys said:

But wouldn't the difference there be that Muslim butcher shops don't carry pork chops in the first place? They could just say we don't have them.

My point was that it goes against their religious beliefs. I don't believe in God in any form and I personally think that the idea of religion is ridiculous. But even I wouldn't go out of my way to target a Christian bakery and ask them to make me a cake that goes against their religious beliefs. Because even if I don't believe in that sort of thing, I know that some people do and they take their religion very seriously. So I'm not going to put them on the spot and ask them to give up those beliefs just so I can make a point.

Exactely. That kind of thing used to be called tact.

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Reply #16 posted 10/10/18 1:36pm

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

EmmaMcG said:

poppys said:

But wouldn't the difference there be that Muslim butcher shops don't carry pork chops in the first place? They could just say we don't have them.

My point was that it goes against their religious beliefs. I don't believe in God in any form and I personally think that the idea of religion is ridiculous. But even I wouldn't go out of my way to target a Christian bakery and ask them to make me a cake that goes against their religious beliefs. Because even if I don't believe in that sort of thing, I know that some people do and they take their religion very seriously. So I'm not going to put them on the spot and ask them to give up those beliefs just so I can make a point.


I get what you're saying. Can one go to a Jewish Bakery and ask them to make a cake with a swastika and expect them not to refuse? I realize that is an extreme example, but making a cake that says "Support Gay Marriage" for an organization does not mean the cake makers believe in that cause - were they just afraid people would think that? No one is asking them to believe in gay marriage - just make a cake that says that for a customer. I guess if a bakery said sorry we do not want to make your cake, I'd just go to one that wants my money and does not feel a special affiliation with its customers' beliefs.

Ugh... these are just cakes!





[Edited 10/10/18 13:37pm]

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #17 posted 10/10/18 3:29pm

EmmaMcG

NorthC said:

EmmaMcG said:

They didn't do anything wrong. Their religion, like most religions, is homophobic. It goes against their religious beliefs to make that cake. It's akin to walking into a Muslim Butcher shop and asking for a couple of pork chops.

Where I live we actually have a shop with that name. It's called Moslim Slagerij which means Muslim Butchery. I love it how they don't seem to get the joke behind this...
[Edited 10/10/18 13:24pm]
lol
[Edited 10/10/18 13:26pm]


Well, I was going to make a joke initially but "Muslim Butchery" has already beaten me to it.
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Reply #18 posted 10/11/18 3:58am

deebee

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I thought it was the right call, tbh. A customer has the right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of his or her sexual orientation, and, reciprocally, a business has no right to discriminate on these grounds. This was rightly upheld in 2013 when the Court ruled in favour of the gay couple turned away by the Christian owners of a B&B/guest house, and ordered the latter to pay damages. But each individual has the right not to manifest a viewpoint they disagree with (even in icing!), so no customer nor court has the right to force them to do that.

Kenan Malik broke it down well in this article, I felt: https://www.theguardian.c...fuse-order

It was a bungled case, IMO, which failed to zero in on a legitimate shortcoming and force the law to address it, as legal activism done competently can do. Even the slogan was dunderheaded in being so overtly political, i.e. supporting a cause expressly seeking a change of legislation. Had it been "It's ok to be gay!", or some such, one could imagine at least some reasonable concerns over the ramifications of refusing it - though, in the end, I'd still argue the bakery would have had the right to do so, just as a gay baker would have the right to refuse to ice a heteronormative verse from the Book of Leviticus onto a cake.

[Edited 10/11/18 4:01am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #19 posted 10/11/18 5:58am

poppys

deebee said:

I thought it was the right call, tbh. A customer has the right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of his or her sexual orientation, and, reciprocally, a business has no right to discriminate on these grounds. This was rightly upheld in 2013 when the Court ruled in favour of the gay couple turned away by the Christian owners of a B&B/guest house, and ordered the latter to pay damages. But each individual has the right not to manifest a viewpoint they disagree with (even in icing!), so no customer nor court has the right to force them to do that.

Kenan Malik broke it down well in this article, I felt: https://www.theguardian.c...fuse-order

It was a bungled case, IMO, which failed to zero in on a legitimate shortcoming and force the law to address it, as legal activism done competently can do. Even the slogan was dunderheaded in being so overtly political, i.e. supporting a cause expressly seeking a change of legislation. Had it been "It's ok to be gay!", or some such, one could imagine at least some reasonable concerns over the ramifications of refusing it - though, in the end, I'd still argue the bakery would have had the right to do so, just as a gay baker would have the right to refuse to ice a heteronormative verse from the Book of Leviticus onto a cake.

Agree. It was a very overt activist move, executed with a blunt force message hammer - that backfired.

Interesting how the discussion turned to Muslim comparisons almost immediately. I sense something there, but have no dog in that fight.

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