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Reply #270 posted 07/10/18 9:04am

13cjk13

2freaky4church1 said:

Heard Obama hates her.

Those wacky voices in your head. eek

"Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost".
-Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #271 posted 07/10/18 1:29pm

DiminutiveRock
er

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13cjk13 said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Heard Obama hates her.

Those wacky voices in your head. eek


blahblah

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #272 posted 07/10/18 1:37pm

Silvertongue7

OnlyNDaUsa said:



Dancelot said:




OnlyNDaUsa said:





so then you are honest enough to admit that being so-called 'alt-right' is not the same as being a nazi?




why are you changing the subject?

this thread is about Ocasio-Cortzez and socialism, and my posts specifically were about your complete lack of understanding of that term

so stick to that, or just shut up cool






socialist and fascist are one in the same: far left where the government has very strong power and control of the people: for their own good.


No.
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Reply #273 posted 07/10/18 7:51pm

IanRG

Silvertongue7 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

socialist and fascist are one in the same: far left where the government has very strong power and control of the people: for their own good.

No.

.

Yeah, those lefties with their war on drugs, anti-LGBTIQ legislation, and those who increased taxes and tariffs - people like
Hoover (control of alcohol, increased taxes and tariffs),

Eisenhower (increased taxes and expanded social security),

Nixon (increased taxes, wages and price controls, proposed national minimum income),

Ford (increased taxes),

Reagan (increased government spending, war on drugs),

Bush I (increased taxes, war on drugs),

Trump (reintroducing tariffs to restrict trade, threatening businesses who don't do things his way)

.

Far left Presidents, one and all - If, and only if, "far left" just means enlarging government as a proportion of the economy and seeking to control others.

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Reply #274 posted 07/11/18 8:11am

2freaky4church
1

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TPP

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #275 posted 07/11/18 11:42am

jaawwnn

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Another democratic socialist candidate in with a chance:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/meet-julia-salazar-a-dsa-candidate-for-ny-state-senate.html

2freaky4church1 said:

Heard Obama hates her.

it'd be interesting to see what Obama honestly thinks of this new generation, they're clearly way to the left of anything he ever proposed, never mind achieved.

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Reply #276 posted 07/11/18 2:29pm

DiminutiveRock
er

avatar

jaawwnn said:

Another democratic socialist candidate in with a chance:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/meet-julia-salazar-a-dsa-candidate-for-ny-state-senate.html

2freaky4church1 said:

Heard Obama hates her.

it'd be interesting to see what Obama honestly thinks of this new generation, they're clearly way to the left of anything he ever proposed, never mind achieved.

woot! I love it! Progressive young women putting the citizens interests at the forefront!

I would be curious too - for all the flack he took, Obama was not nearly as progressive and Bernie or Alexandria. Even if he shared their views he played a different hand - and not necessarily the best hand all the time. He tried to play nice with conservatives, which is admirable but not effective in this political climate.

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #277 posted 07/12/18 7:42am

2freaky4church
1

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Obama supported Crowley.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #278 posted 07/12/18 7:47am

DiminutiveRock
er

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2freaky4church1 said:

Obama supported Crowley.

And? rolleyes all the establishment democrats did - the guy's been around forever. Ocasio-Cortez is shaking it up - she is young and more in-touch with her generation --> something that is badly needed in the party, IMO.

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #279 posted 07/13/18 8:07am

2freaky4church
1

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silly

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #280 posted 07/13/18 8:34am

jjhunsecker

avatar

DiminutiveRocker said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Obama supported Crowley.

And? rolleyes all the establishment democrats did - the guy's been around forever. Ocasio-Cortez is shaking it up - she is young and more in-touch with her generation --> something that is badly needed in the party, IMO.

Crowley was my Congressman. He did good for the district, and I voted for him several times. Itwas the demographics of the district that did him in, plus the fact that he hardly campaigned this time out.

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Reply #281 posted 07/13/18 8:36am

poppys

2freaky4church1 said:

Obama supported Crowley.


"Crowley, a 10-term incumbent, had not even faced a primary challenger since 2004" - thread title article.


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Reply #282 posted 07/13/18 8:36am

2freaky4church
1

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Then you are certainly more moderate than you think.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #283 posted 07/13/18 8:43am

jjhunsecker

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2freaky4church1 said:

Then you are certainly more moderate than you think.

I personally always referred to myself using the words of former NYC mayor Ed Koch, and considered myself a "liberal with sanity"

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Reply #284 posted 07/13/18 8:47am

2freaky4church
1

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I'm glad you told me that. lol. Ed Koch was one of the worst bastards ever. He hated inner city blacks.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #285 posted 07/13/18 8:57am

jjhunsecker

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2freaky4church1 said:

I'm glad you told me that. lol. Ed Koch was one of the worst bastards ever. He hated inner city blacks.

I didn;t say I agreed with everything Koch said or did. I like that phrase.

BTW- Everyone hates inner city Blacks. Including other Blacks sometimes.

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Reply #286 posted 07/13/18 9:05am

jjhunsecker

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As I said, the demographics of the district did in Crowley. The district became both more minorities (Latinos and Asians mainly) and an influx of educated professional Whites (including many "hipster" types) who moved here for it's proximity to Manhattan. Ocasio-Cortez campaigned hard among these groups, while Crowley sat on his ass

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Reply #287 posted 07/13/18 9:59am

DiminutiveRock
er

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jjhunsecker said:

As I said, the demographics of the district did in Crowley. The district became both more minorities (Latinos and Asians mainly) and an influx of educated professional Whites (including many "hipster" types) who moved here for it's proximity to Manhattan. Ocasio-Cortez campaigned hard among these groups, while Crowley sat on his ass

Complacency. Then it's time for him to go. Never take your constituency for granted - he wasn't paying attention.

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #288 posted 07/13/18 12:45pm

Camileyun

Socialism has been tried over and over and over again throughout history, and the result is ALWAYS the same. It doesn't work!!! There is a reason they aren't teaching real history in schools anymore. Read history,
then you can't be manipulated.
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Reply #289 posted 07/13/18 2:58pm

jaawwnn

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Camileyun said:

Socialism has been tried over and over and over again throughout history, and the result is ALWAYS the same. It doesn't work!!! There is a reason they aren't teaching real history in schools anymore. Read history, then you can't be manipulated.


The idea that there is just a written "history", free from ideology, out there to read is the real giveaway on this post but consider the following:

Firstly, socialism/communism has never been given fair chance since. Every communist state has always been attacked and undermined at every opportunity, usually by the entire world constantly attacking it, read any 20th century history book for more info. Even beyond the USSR or China, any and every late 20th century communist country has had to deal with the likes of the CIA waging constant assassination programs against them, not to mention 100% political, economic, cultural etc. boycotts. You try creating a society under that kind of hell.

Secondly, take a country like the USSR and look at its agreed upon achievements, its agreed upon failings, and hold them up against our own. For example, the USSR moved from a completely agrarian society to a modern industrialised world power, one of only two world powers in fact, in 50 odd years. To get there though, millions and millions of people died, hell you can say they were killed, sure, mostly through famines caused by industrialisation.

How do we compare? Well... when did the west go from agrarian to industrialised? You'll notice it took a lot longer, about 300-400 years, and also occurred over those centuries that just happen to coincide with the peak years of colonisation and the slave trade. You might in fact say that what the USSR did to its own people we did to others. How are the Incas getting on these days anyway? Ask India for some figures on how many died in famines caused by their colonizers. I could go on. If one is to "read history" like you suggest, then Europe and America don't come off looking so hot themselves.

So in answer to your post, I'll posit that Socialism has never really been tried and none of the undeniable crimes done under the name of communism have been any worse than those done under capitalism.

I don't expect you to be convinced but maybe have a think about what exactly it is that you hate about socialism and in what way it "doesn't work".




And here listen, before y'all jump on me, i'm posting this in good faith here. I don't have the answers but the "socialism = spending other peoples money" posting on here sometimes is fairly substandard stuff.

[Edited 7/13/18 15:19pm]

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Reply #290 posted 07/13/18 3:43pm

IanRG

Camileyun said:

Socialism has been tried over and over and over again throughout history, and the result is ALWAYS the same. It doesn't work!!! There is a reason they aren't teaching real history in schools anymore. Read history, then you can't be manipulated.

.

History is against you.

.

You are restricting the definition of socialism to something different from what is being discussed in the topic. The only relevent definition of socialism for this thread is the socialist ideas espoused by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, not Marx, Lenin, Mao et al. We are not talking about communism and other extreme forms of socialism, just her beliefs. This is the same as you don't have to talk about the failure of fascism when referring to less extreme types of conservatism.

.

In line with her beliefs the countries of Sweden, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium etc. have successfully achieved more socialist stable and effective economies which frequently measure as countries with higher levels of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity for the highest proportions of their populations than the US.

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Reply #291 posted 07/13/18 7:17pm

Camileyun

IanRG said:



Camileyun said:


Socialism has been tried over and over and over again throughout history, and the result is ALWAYS the same. It doesn't work!!! There is a reason they aren't teaching real history in schools anymore. Read history, then you can't be manipulated.

.


History is against you.


.


You are restricting the definition of socialism to something different from what is being discussed in the topic. The only relevent definition of socialism for this thread is the socialist ideas espoused by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, not Marx, Lenin, Mao et al. We are not talking about communism and other extreme forms of socialism, just her beliefs. This is the same as you don't have to talk about the failure of fascism when referring to less extreme types of conservatism.


.


In line with her beliefs the countries of Sweden, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium etc. have successfully achieved more socialist stable and effective economies which frequently measure as countries with higher levels of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity for the highest proportions of their populations than the US.


Socialism is socialism. If she espouses something different, then don't call it socialism, call it what it is. As for the rest of your claims, for times sake, I'll just address Sweden, as I believe people should do their own research instead of taking others words for things. The average home in Sweden is something like 750 square ft., their taxes are something like 70 pct. (+/-), Stockholm is the rape capital of the world, they export Ikea stuff and ?. If this is your idea of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity, you and I disagree. Capitalism has done more to lift people out of poverty around the planet than any other system in history. Socialism squelches innovation. It always sounds good in the beginning (all that free stuff and" fairness") and ALWAYS ends in corruption (hell, look at all the corruption already in D.C. - what the heck happens when you hand over 70 pct of your earnings to a bunch of beauracrats to spend as they see fit? Where are you gonna' find trustworthy saints to do this!- name one!! When people start paying taxes in this country, things start looking a little different.
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Reply #292 posted 07/13/18 8:16pm

IanRG

Camileyun said:

IanRG said:

.

History is against you.

.

You are restricting the definition of socialism to something different from what is being discussed in the topic. The only relevent definition of socialism for this thread is the socialist ideas espoused by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, not Marx, Lenin, Mao et al. We are not talking about communism and other extreme forms of socialism, just her beliefs. This is the same as you don't have to talk about the failure of fascism when referring to less extreme types of conservatism.

.

In line with her beliefs the countries of Sweden, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium etc. have successfully achieved more socialist stable and effective economies which frequently measure as countries with higher levels of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity for the highest proportions of their populations than the US.

Socialism is socialism. If she espouses something different, then don't call it socialism, call it what it is. As for the rest of your claims, for times sake, I'll just address Sweden, as I believe people should do their own research instead of taking others words for things. The average home in Sweden is something like 750 square ft., their taxes are something like 70 pct. (+/-), Stockholm is the rape capital of the world, they export Ikea stuff and ?. If this is your idea of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity, you and I disagree. Capitalism has done more to lift people out of poverty around the planet than any other system in history. Socialism squelches innovation. It always sounds good in the beginning (all that free stuff and" fairness") and ALWAYS ends in corruption (hell, look at all the corruption already in D.C. - what the heck happens when you hand over 70 pct of your earnings to a bunch of beauracrats to spend as they see fit? Where are you gonna' find trustworthy saints to do this!- name one!! When people start paying taxes in this country, things start looking a little different.

.

You need to read and learn to apply what you have read - "Socialism is socialism" is a pointless statement that only demonstrates that you have not read history as you claimed. You are just reciting propaganda.

.

You really need to read about how relative satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety and dignity are measured across countries and not just listen to Brietbart and alike.

.

The giveaway that you have been manipulated is the Swedish rape figure. With a little reading with thoughtful analysis you would quickly discover that Sweden has a much wider measure of what is legally considered rape and a much higher percentage of reporting rape than in the US. You would see figures are misused by the far right media to manipulate their audience. I note that you failed to mention that of the list of countries I mentioned, that the US is third highest of that list. This means all the other more socialist countries (excpet Sweden and Belgium) report fewer rapes per 100,000 people than in the US despite practicing the type of socialism Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is promoting. Using one of your suggested measures all these other countries rate better than the US.

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Reply #293 posted 07/13/18 10:44pm

13cjk13

IanRG said:

Camileyun said:

IanRG said: Socialism is socialism. If she espouses something different, then don't call it socialism, call it what it is. As for the rest of your claims, for times sake, I'll just address Sweden, as I believe people should do their own research instead of taking others words for things. The average home in Sweden is something like 750 square ft., their taxes are something like 70 pct. (+/-), Stockholm is the rape capital of the world, they export Ikea stuff and ?. If this is your idea of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity, you and I disagree. Capitalism has done more to lift people out of poverty around the planet than any other system in history. Socialism squelches innovation. It always sounds good in the beginning (all that free stuff and" fairness") and ALWAYS ends in corruption (hell, look at all the corruption already in D.C. - what the heck happens when you hand over 70 pct of your earnings to a bunch of beauracrats to spend as they see fit? Where are you gonna' find trustworthy saints to do this!- name one!! When people start paying taxes in this country, things start looking a little different.

.

You need to read and learn to apply what you have read - "Socialism is socialism" is a pointless statement that only demonstrates that you have not read history as you claimed. You are just reciting propaganda.

.

You really need to read about how relative satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety and dignity are measured across countries and not just listen to Brietbart and alike.

.

The giveaway that you have been manipulated is the Swedish rape figure. With a little reading with thoughtful analysis you would quickly discover that Sweden has a much wider measure of what is legally considered rape and a much higher percentage of reporting rape than in the US. You would see figures are misused by the far right media to manipulate their audience. I note that you failed to mention that of the list of countries I mentioned, that the US is third highest of that list. This means all the other more socialist countries (excpet Sweden and Belgium) report fewer rapes per 100,000 people than in the US despite practicing the type of socialism Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is promoting. Using one of your suggested measures all these other countries rate better than the US.

Bravo that you can respond with facts in such a calm manner to such absolute blathering, misguided nonsense. Thanks for another enlightening post. biggrin

"Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost".
-Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #294 posted 07/14/18 7:36am

poppys

Camileyun said:

IanRG said:

.

History is against you.

.

You are restricting the definition of socialism to something different from what is being discussed in the topic. The only relevent definition of socialism for this thread is the socialist ideas espoused by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, not Marx, Lenin, Mao et al. We are not talking about communism and other extreme forms of socialism, just her beliefs. This is the same as you don't have to talk about the failure of fascism when referring to less extreme types of conservatism.

.

In line with her beliefs the countries of Sweden, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium etc. have successfully achieved more socialist stable and effective economies which frequently measure as countries with higher levels of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity for the highest proportions of their populations than the US.


Socialism is socialism. If she espouses something different, then don't call it socialism, call it what it is. As for the rest of your claims, for times sake, I'll just address Sweden, as I believe people should do their own research instead of taking others words for things. The average home in Sweden is something like 750 square ft., their taxes are something like 70 pct. (+/-), Stockholm is the rape capital of the world, they export Ikea stuff and ?. If this is your idea of satisfaction, happiness, quality of life, safety, security and dignity, you and I disagree. Capitalism has done more to lift people out of poverty around the planet than any other system in history. Socialism squelches innovation. It always sounds good in the beginning (all that free stuff and" fairness") and ALWAYS ends in corruption (hell, look at all the corruption already in D.C. - what the heck happens when you hand over 70 pct of your earnings to a bunch of beauracrats to spend as they see fit? Where are you gonna' find trustworthy saints to do this!- name one!! When people start paying taxes in this country, things start looking a little different.


Ok, I'll call it BULLSHIT, at least your version. Fox News, Breitbart and Infowars do such a thorough job, huh? They love the poorly educated, just like their leader. He loves the free stuff too. party

Okay, let's abolish Corporate Welfare and Lobbyists and let them pay taxes for starters.

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Reply #295 posted 07/15/18 7:54am

DiminutiveRock
er

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*sidebar*

I have to say that for a minute I thought this thread was going off the rails a bit - but has been one of the more interesting threads on here in P&R - thanks to everyone for your insight and discussion!

OK - back to your regularly scheduled progam.

"'Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.'' - Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #296 posted 07/15/18 3:16pm

EmancipationLo
ver

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jaawwnn said:

So in answer to your post, I'll posit that Socialism has never really been tried and none of the undeniable crimes done under the name of communism have been any worse than those done under capitalism.

.

With all due respect: that statement might easily be one of the dumbest statements I have ever read on this board. And that definitely means something.

prince
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Reply #297 posted 07/15/18 6:08pm

13cjk13

EmancipationLover said:

jaawwnn said:

So in answer to your post, I'll posit that Socialism has never really been tried and none of the undeniable crimes done under the name of communism have been any worse than those done under capitalism.

.

With all due respect: that statement might easily be one of the dumbest statements I have ever read on this board. And that definitely means something.

It's not.

"Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost".
-Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #298 posted 07/16/18 5:39am

EmancipationLo
ver

avatar

13cjk13 said:

EmancipationLover said:

.

With all due respect: that statement might easily be one of the dumbest statements I have ever read on this board. And that definitely means something.

It's not.

.

Oh yes, it is - as long as we are talking about Soviet/East European communism until ca. 1989/1990.

.

Do you have any idea how things looked in East Germany right after the reunification? Socialism (more precisely: Communism) has destroyed that part of the country, including terrible environmental problems. It has cost billions (if not trillions) to fix all that.

.

The idea that the political system practised in these countries was not 'real Socialism' is laughable. The rulers in the USSR/East Europe had studied Marxism in detail and knew Das Kapital from cover to cover. Universities taught a Marxist view on history and Marxist economics.

.

Playing down the failures and crimes of Communism is either ignorant or an indication of insufficient knowledge of history, in my opinion.

prince
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Reply #299 posted 07/16/18 7:06am

13cjk13

EmancipationLover said:

13cjk13 said:

It's not.

.

Oh yes, it is - as long as we are talking about Soviet/East European communism until ca. 1989/1990.

.

Do you have any idea how things looked in East Germany right after the reunification? Socialism (more precisely: Communism) has destroyed that part of the country, including terrible environmental problems. It has cost billions (if not trillions) to fix all that.

.

The idea that the political system practised in these countries was not 'real Socialism' is laughable. The rulers in the USSR/East Europe had studied Marxism in detail and knew Das Kapital from cover to cover. Universities taught a Marxist view on history and Marxist economics.

.

Playing down the failures and crimes of Communism is either ignorant or an indication of insufficient knowledge of history, in my opinion.

Was it Democratic Socialism?

"Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost".
-Thomas Jefferson
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