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Forums > Politics & Religion > Atheist Bible expert Bart Ehrman: Jesus did exist!
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Reply #30 posted 05/07/18 2:03pm

toejam

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2freaky4church1 said:

Ehrman is seeing too much into the Bible. He mentions the Jesus Seminar than says Jesus was apocalyptic. Jesus just said he would come back and he did, when he appeared in the Upper room and next week will rise to heaven. The writer of the text put too much excess into it.

.

Ehrman mostly criticizes the Jesus Seminar in the podcast. The Jesus of the gospels says more than simply that he will come back. He regularly states or implies that the apocalyse would happen within the generation of his followers. Paul thought and taught this too. But it didn't happen. Yes, the gospel authors certainly put too much excess in their stories. A lot of sayings and deeds probably aren't historical. But they probably at least reflect some degree of the kind of thing the historical Jesus was teaching. Imminent apocalyptic expectation among sectarian Jews was a common thing.

.

Mark 8:38
"Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
.
Mark 13:24
“But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place."

.

Q (Luke 17:24 / Matthew 24:27)
"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. But first he must endure much suffering and be rejected by this generation. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed all of them, it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed."
.
M (Matthew 13:40)
"Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!"
.
L (Luke 21:34)
Jesus: "Be on guard so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of this life, and that day does not catch you unexpectedly, like a trap. For it will come upon all who live on the face of the whole earth. Be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #31 posted 05/07/18 2:15pm

Graycap23

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toejam said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Jesus suffered on the cross. Why do Atheists miss this?

.

Do we? Of course the historical Jesus almost certainly suffered on the cross.

There is a biblical Jesus.

Is there a historical Jesus?

Yes....I'm in a Cult. We brainwash people into THINKING ............4 Themselves. FAMILIAR BONDAGE OVER FOREIGN FREEDOM
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Reply #32 posted 05/07/18 2:33pm

2freaky4church
1

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Toe, Mark weaved two different themes together from other text. Apocalyptic text was different from what Jesus said. Mark stitched two different things to make one different sentence. "This Generation" means the Christian generation which means all Christians from every age.

Remember, Bible was written by men, inspired with God's help, but men wrote text and misused text.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #33 posted 05/07/18 2:34pm

2freaky4church
1

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no Fundy here Toe toe.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #34 posted 05/07/18 2:54pm

IanRG

toejam said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Ehrman is seeing too much into the Bible. He mentions the Jesus Seminar than says Jesus was apocalyptic. Jesus just said he would come back and he did, when he appeared in the Upper room and next week will rise to heaven. The writer of the text put too much excess into it.

.

Ehrman mostly criticizes the Jesus Seminar in the podcast. The Jesus of the gospels says more than simply that he will come back. He regularly states or implies that the apocalyse would happen within the generation of his followers. Paul thought and taught this too. But it didn't happen. Yes, the gospel authors certainly put too much excess in their stories. A lot of sayings and deeds probably aren't historical. But they probably at least reflect some degree of the kind of thing the historical Jesus was teaching. Imminent apocalyptic expectation among sectarian Jews was a common thing.

.

Mark 8:38
"Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
.
Mark 13:24
“But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place."

.

Q (Luke 17:24 / Matthew 24:27)
"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. But first he must endure much suffering and be rejected by this generation. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking, and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them. Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot: they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day that Lot left Sodom, it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed all of them, it will be like that on the day that the Son of Man is revealed."
.
M (Matthew 13:40)
"Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!"
.
L (Luke 21:34)
Jesus: "Be on guard so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of this life, and that day does not catch you unexpectedly, like a trap. For it will come upon all who live on the face of the whole earth. Be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

.

Ahh the old toejam cut and paste of the same old quotes, all interpreted by toejam in line with his fundamentalist beliefs. All have been addressed many, many times before and your particular interpretation is only selected to push your beliefs.

.

Why aren't you discussing Ehrman's comment against the Jesus Seminar as in the podcast that is the actual topic?

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Reply #35 posted 05/07/18 2:56pm

IanRG

Graycap23 said:

toejam said:

.

Do we? Of course the historical Jesus almost certainly suffered on the cross.

There is a biblical Jesus.

Is there a historical Jesus?

.

Yes, there is no good reason to think there was not. Did you listen to Ehrman's discussion on this?

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Reply #36 posted 05/07/18 3:02pm

2freaky4church
1

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Jesus never knew there would be a church.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #37 posted 05/07/18 3:21pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Jesus never knew there would be a church.

.

??? And, yet said he was corner stone and he sent his disciples to spread the Good news

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Reply #38 posted 05/07/18 3:53pm

toejam

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2freaky4church1 said:

"This Generation" means the Christian generation which means all Christians from every age.

That's seems more like excuse making than sound reflective interpretation. It's like saying that a fella who walked down the street with a sign painted "THE END IS NIGH!" wasn't wrong when two thousand further years pass because the word "nigh" isn't specific enough. There's no good reason to interpret the "this generation" language on Jesus's lips as anything other than the straight forward reading - he's talking about his generation. And he was thus wrong.

.
[Edited 5/7/18 15:57pm]
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #39 posted 05/07/18 3:58pm

toejam

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Graycap23 said:



toejam said:




2freaky4church1 said:


Jesus suffered on the cross. Why do Atheists miss this?



.


Do we? Of course the historical Jesus almost certainly suffered on the cross.



There is a biblical Jesus.


Is there a historical Jesus?



Yes. Probably. As Ian has recommended, listen to the podcast.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
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Reply #40 posted 05/07/18 4:03pm

IanRG

toejam said:

2freaky4church1 said:
"This Generation" means the Christian generation which means all Christians from every age.
That's seems more like excuse making than sound reflective interpretation. It's like saying that a fella who walked down the street with a sign painted "THE END IS NIGH!" wasn't wrong when two thousand further years pass because the word "nigh" isn't specific enough. There's no good reason to interpret the "this generation" language on Jesus's lips as anything other than the straight forward reading - he's talking about his generation. And he was thus wrong. . [Edited 5/7/18 15:57pm]

.

But first he must endure much suffering and be rejected by this generation.

.

He did endure much suffering and was rejected by that generation.

.

Still nothing on the topic except encouragement for one of the "there was no Jesus" camp to listen to a person from the "there was probably a historical Jesus" camp

[Edited 5/7/18 16:05pm]

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Reply #41 posted 05/07/18 4:11pm

Graycap23

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toejam said:

Graycap23 said:

There is a biblical Jesus.

Is there a historical Jesus?

Yes. Probably. As Ian has recommended, listen to the podcast.

What history book can I find Jesus?

Lol......never mind, google came up with something next 2 nothing, as I suspected.

[Edited 5/7/18 16:19pm]

Yes....I'm in a Cult. We brainwash people into THINKING ............4 Themselves. FAMILIAR BONDAGE OVER FOREIGN FREEDOM
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Reply #42 posted 05/08/18 6:50am

2freaky4church
1

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Notice he avoided my point about Mark. Never read the Bible like a normal book.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #43 posted 05/08/18 2:43pm

IanRG

Graycap23 said:

toejam said:

Graycap23 said: Yes. Probably. As Ian has recommended, listen to the podcast.

What history book can I find Jesus?

Lol......never mind, google came up with something next 2 nothing, as I suspected.

[Edited 5/7/18 16:19pm]

.

LOL, like you have forgotten that you have discussed this before, so we know you did not just do a google search between these two sentences.

.

There are more history books about Jesus where the author was able to speak to eyewitnesses than there are about Alexander the Great. I assume you are consistent and consider Alexander to be the equivalent of the tooth fairy?

.

Have you ever asked yourself why there are so many professional historians etc who are openly opposed to Christianity who agree with Ehrman etc that Jesus the man probably existed. This is not an toejam appeal to authority, where I am suggesting you look at their credentials as "proof" where some academic has said something that supports my belief - instead it is for you to look at why people that have the same beliefs as you about Jesus being the Christ (and are completely different to mine) but disagree with you about Jesus being a man (probably).

[Edited 5/8/18 16:19pm]

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Reply #44 posted 05/08/18 6:58pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

Graycap23 said:

toejam said:

Graycap23 said: Yes. Probably. As Ian has recommended, listen to the podcast.

What history book can I find Jesus?

Lol......never mind, google came up with something next 2 nothing, as I suspected.

[Edited 5/7/18 16:19pm]

don't make yourself look like that Graycap23

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #45 posted 05/08/18 8:05pm

Graycap23

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OldFriends4Sale said:

Graycap23 said:

What history book can I find Jesus?

Lol......never mind, google came up with something next 2 nothing, as I suspected.

[Edited 5/7/18 16:19pm]

don't make yourself look like that Graycap23

What the fuck does that mean?

Yes....I'm in a Cult. We brainwash people into THINKING ............4 Themselves. FAMILIAR BONDAGE OVER FOREIGN FREEDOM
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Reply #46 posted 05/09/18 5:09am

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

Graycap23 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

don't make yourself look like that Graycap23

What the fuck does that mean?

All these dudes went into the deep end, and your post is splashing around in the shallows with a life jacket lol

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #47 posted 05/10/18 5:43am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Graycap23 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

don't make yourself look like that Graycap23

What the fuck does that mean?

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #48 posted 05/10/18 9:44am

Graycap23

avatar

The org is now down to trolling mods?

Yes....I'm in a Cult. We brainwash people into THINKING ............4 Themselves. FAMILIAR BONDAGE OVER FOREIGN FREEDOM
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Reply #49 posted 05/10/18 10:06am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Graycap23 said:

The org is now down to trolling mods?

that is not trolling.
saying you stayed shallow (ie google) when the rest of these dudes went deep is funny fact

.

and i know you laughed at the gif

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #50 posted 05/10/18 10:09am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Graycap23 said:

The org is now down to trolling mods?

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #51 posted 05/10/18 10:27am

Graycap23

avatar

ok.....I did laugh.

Yes....I'm in a Cult. We brainwash people into THINKING ............4 Themselves. FAMILIAR BONDAGE OVER FOREIGN FREEDOM
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Reply #52 posted 05/10/18 10:42am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Graycap23 said:

ok.....I did laugh.

Hey no matter, what your one of the old school Org members

gotta have a laugh once in a while

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #53 posted 05/10/18 12:35pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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Graycap23 said:

toejam said:

.

Do we? Of course the historical Jesus almost certainly suffered on the cross.

There is a biblical Jesus.

Is there a historical Jesus?

what about a hysterical Jesus? His jokes Kill but you do not get them for 3 days.



[Edited 5/10/18 12:38pm]

Anyone for banning the AR15 must be on the side of the criminal as once banned only criminals will have them.
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Reply #54 posted 05/10/18 3:23pm

IanRG

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Graycap23 said:

There is a biblical Jesus.

Is there a historical Jesus?

what about a hysterical Jesus? His jokes Kill but you do not get them for 3 days.



[Edited 5/10/18 12:38pm]

.

Or the Hispanic Jesus, the guy who always turn around when you give a "Hey" to Sue.

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