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Thread started 03/02/18 8:02am

Graycap23

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Q: Why hasn't White America given up racism?

After Centuries of racism.......why in 2018 is it still here?

Yes....I'm in a Cult. We brainwash people into THINKING ............4 Themselves. FAMILIAR BONDAGE OVER FOREIGN FREEDOM
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Reply #1 posted 03/02/18 8:14am

RodeoSchro

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A. Many - most - have. Noteveryone that needs to has, but we all work to make it better every single day. But there will always be idiots, bad people, and racists. It will never go completely away. Heck, we still have Nazis.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's paladin
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Reply #2 posted 03/02/18 10:05am

2freaky4church
1

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Hard to do when they call BLM a terror group.

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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Reply #3 posted 03/02/18 10:16am

uPtoWnNY

Racial hatred ends when humanity ends.

It's not an american thing, but a global one.

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Reply #4 posted 03/02/18 10:29am

peedub

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Graycap23 said:

After Centuries of racism.......why in 2018 is it still here?


because there are races.

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Reply #5 posted 03/02/18 10:38am

OnlyNDaUsa

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the very question in the title is part of why.

Anyone for banning the AR15 must be on the side of the criminal as once banned only criminals will have them.
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Reply #6 posted 03/02/18 4:01pm

Dasein

Taken from this article:

“In some ways, it’s super simple. People learn to be whatever their society and culture teaches them.
We often assume that it takes parents actively teaching their kids, for them to be racist. The truth is
that unless parents actively teach kids not to be racists, they will be,” said Jennifer Richeson, a Yale
University social psychologist. “This is not the product of some deep-seated, evil heart that
is cultivated. It comes from the environment, the air all around us.”

Richeson compares children's instinctive formation of biases to a student at a new school. “When you
arrive at a new high school. You are instinctively trying to figure out who’s cool, who’s not, who’s a
nerd, who gets beat up? Kids quickly acquire these associations,” she said.


“An us-them mentality is unfortunately a really basic part of our biology,” said Eric Knowles, a
psychology professor at New York University who studies prejudice and politics.
“There’s a lot of
evidence that people have an ingrained even evolved tendency toward people who are in our so-
called 'in group.'”




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Reply #7 posted 03/02/18 6:02pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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moderator

Are men still raping women (whether it is in Europe Africa Asian or North America)?

Why hasn't Men given up sexism?

Like Uptown said, it is a human thing.

Various ethnic groups in Africa dominated other African ethnic groups, ruled and did things very similar to 'racism' same thing happened in Europe, same in Asia etc

And things things still exist in various degrees

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the m
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Reply #8 posted 03/02/18 6:20pm

benni

Graycap23 said:

After Centuries of racism.......why in 2018 is it still here?


Graycap, I wish I could say why it's still here, except that the Civil Rights movement wasn't that long ago, and a lot of the older white people, still remember the time before that and haven't let go of that time.

My family (biological) are really racist. They lived (as did I many, many years ago) close to east St. Louis, which is a really bad section of St. Louis. I had two cousins that were murdered on the same street, years apart; one from a drug deal that went bad (he was 20 - quite a few years back), and many years before then, his younger sister (who was 11) was killed (amongst other things that happened to her) by her karate instructor. There were a lot of break-ins in the neighborhood, and it was always just assumed that it was the black kids doing it. (But I have a feeling that it was also some of the white kids.)

I even had a couple of instances as a young 5/6 year old, in which one of the older black girls would get all of us younger kids to go with her: once to a local wood shop, in which she was going to rob the store owner after getting him to go back in the back to get some scrap wood - he knew what she planned (us little kids didn't), and he come out with a hand gun, waving it at us kids and threatening us (I thought I was going to be shot and killed and hid inside a sandwich sign outside his shop); and a second time she asked us to walk with her to a hospital gift shop down the road from us, and she went in and claimed her uncle was on the 5th floor and wanted to get some candy, and other items, and have it billed to his room.

And another time, I almost had my foot cut off. I can't blame that on the girl though, because my older cousin said some really mean things to her. We were playing in the backyard and she walked past the yard, taking some soda bottles to the laundromat for the deposit, and she stopped to watch us. My cousin got all nasty with her, asking what she was looking at, calling her names. She took a soda bottle, broke it, and threw the round bottom part. I started grabbing my younger cousins, lifting them up on the porch, and when I stepped down on that foot, it didn't feel right. I looked down and was standing in a pool of blood. It had sliced through, from ankle to ankle, half-way through my leg. I still have the scar that runs from ankle to ankle around the back of my leg.

My family, now, automatically believes that is how all black people are, and don't stop to think that there are white people that do a heck of a lot of worse. All of those things happened and they believe that is representative of all black people. My cousin, Danny, was messing with drugs, dealing with some bad people (white and black) and his death is due to that. My cousin Rhonda, that guy was just sick. The two instances with young teen, you know, it's our fault we went with her and didn't learn after the first instance. It was the neighborhood we lived in. And as I said, the girl that threw the bottom of the soda bottle, my cousin egged her on. She wouldn't have done that had he not said the things he did and I can't blame her for that. It just missed my cousin and hit me.

For myself, I was so mistreated by my white family, and other than those few instances I've never been treated with anything but respect by others that have a different skin from me. If I were to judge anyone by skin color because of how I was treated, I would have to treat people with the same skin color as me as vile, ugly people. I can't do that either. So what I teach my kids is what I have learned, you don't judge people based on their color, religion, ethnicity, you look at the person's heart and how they treat you, individually. I don't know why my family can't see that and, to be honest, I walked away from my family when I was in my 20s. I only recently reconnected with some of them, and I've realized they still hold those same views.

I just think that as the older generations pass, it will be the younger generations that will eradicate racism. I think, that many of the older generations hold on to the old racist stereotypes and then they pass it on to their families. But some of us, in those families, do break away and we teach our children differently. And I guess I'm doing okay with how I treat people because one day, while training some case managers, we got into a discussion of music, and I mentioned Prince (of course) and going to see a George Clinton concert once, and just how I would interact and talk with everyone in the class and one of the case managers said, "Please don't get offended by this, but you must have some black blood in you." I laughed and said, "I wouldn't be surprised! And why would I get offended at that? I actually consider that a compliment!" And I did, and do.

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Reply #9 posted 03/02/18 6:24pm

benni

Dasein said:

Taken from this article:

“In some ways, it’s super simple. People learn to be whatever their society and culture teaches them.
We often assume that it takes parents actively teaching their kids, for them to be racist. The truth is
that unless parents actively teach kids not to be racists, they will be,” said Jennifer Richeson, a Yale
University social psychologist. “This is not the product of some deep-seated, evil heart that
is cultivated. It comes from the environment, the air all around us.”

Richeson compares children's instinctive formation of biases to a student at a new school. “When you
arrive at a new high school. You are instinctively trying to figure out who’s cool, who’s not, who’s a
nerd, who gets beat up? Kids quickly acquire these associations,” she said.


“An us-them mentality is unfortunately a really basic part of our biology,” said Eric Knowles, a
psychology professor at New York University who studies prejudice and politics.
“There’s a lot of
evidence that people have an ingrained even evolved tendency toward people who are in our so-
called 'in group.'”





I think I disagree with this Dasein. I agree that society and culture teaches us some of our core ideologies, but I disagree with the thought that kids will be racist if their parents don't actively teach them to not be.

My family is extremely racist. I grew up hearing some awful things directed at black people from my famly. But, I turned out differently from them. Now, I do teach my kids to never a judge a person based on what's on the outside, but to always look at a person's heart, their actions towards them, but I never had anyone to teach me that.

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Reply #10 posted 03/02/18 6:26pm

jjhunsecker

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How else would Trump have won the Presidency if racism was not still an essential component of the American psyche ?

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Reply #11 posted 03/02/18 6:31pm

benni

jjhunsecker said:

How else would Trump have won the Presidency if racism was not still an essential component of the American psyche ?


Do you really think that was the only reason he won? I mean, I lean towards that thought myself, but I don't want to believe that we have nearly 63 million racists in the country. sad

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Reply #12 posted 03/02/18 6:34pm

jjhunsecker

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benni said:

jjhunsecker said:

How else would Trump have won the Presidency if racism was not still an essential component of the American psyche ?


Do you really think that was the only reason he won? I mean, I lean towards that thought myself, but I don't want to believe that we have nearly 63 million racists in the country. sad

It was an ESSENTIAL reason, in my opinion, if not the only one . I'm not saying all 63 million of those voters were racist...but I do say that they all OVERLOOKED Trump's racism and bigotry (along with his misogyny)and did not see this as disqualifying...

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Reply #13 posted 03/02/18 6:44pm

benni

jjhunsecker said:

benni said:


Do you really think that was the only reason he won? I mean, I lean towards that thought myself, but I don't want to believe that we have nearly 63 million racists in the country. sad

It was an ESSENTIAL reason, in my opinion, if not the only one . I'm not saying all 63 million of those voters were racist...but I do say that they all OVERLOOKED Trump's racism and bigotry (along with his misogyny)and did not see this as disqualifying...


You do have a strong point there. They most definitely overlooked a lot of things about Trump. My cousin commented to me that "Trump talks like" him. I couldn't help but think that I would not be bragging about that.

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Reply #14 posted 03/03/18 3:44am

Dasein

benni said:

Dasein said:

Taken from this article:

“In some ways, it’s super simple. People learn to be whatever their society and culture teaches them.
We often assume that it takes parents actively teaching their kids, for them to be racist. The truth is
that unless parents actively teach kids not to be racists, they will be,” said Jennifer Richeson, a Yale
University social psychologist. “This is not the product of some deep-seated, evil heart that
is cultivated. It comes from the environment, the air all around us.”

Richeson compares children's instinctive formation of biases to a student at a new school. “When you
arrive at a new high school. You are instinctively trying to figure out who’s cool, who’s not, who’s a
nerd, who gets beat up? Kids quickly acquire these associations,” she said.


“An us-them mentality is unfortunately a really basic part of our biology,” said Eric Knowles, a
psychology professor at New York University who studies prejudice and politics.
“There’s a lot of
evidence that people have an ingrained even evolved tendency toward people who are in our so-
called 'in group.'”





I think I disagree with this Dasein. I agree that society and culture teaches us some of our core ideologies, but I disagree with the thought that kids will be racist if their parents don't actively teach them to not be.

My family is extremely racist. I grew up hearing some awful things directed at black people from my famly. But, I turned out differently from them. Now, I do teach my kids to never a judge a person based on what's on the outside, but to always look at a person's heart, their actions towards them, but I never had anyone to teach me that.


Sure, I mean, what these psychologists and scholars suggest may not be a brute fact. But, you
clearly had an alternative you compared your parents' behavior to who "taught" you to value in-
clusivity over racism.

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Reply #15 posted 03/03/18 4:03am

Dasein

jjhunsecker said:

benni said:


Do you really think that was the only reason he won? I mean, I lean towards that thought myself, but I don't want to believe that we have nearly 63 million racists in the country. sad

It was an ESSENTIAL reason, in my opinion, if not the only one . I'm not saying all 63 million of those voters were racist...but I do say that they all OVERLOOKED Trump's racism and bigotry (along with his misogyny)and did not see this as disqualifying...


JJ is on point.

From the article:

In fact, Richeson in recent years has been studying how white people react to the fact that America is
shifting into a majority minority country (where minorities make up more than 50 percent of the
population). In those studies, young white subjects responded just as strongly as older white ones
with anxiety and uncertainty, expressing more negative explicit and implicit racial bias in tests.

After reading about the coming demographic change, for example, white subjects, including college
students, were more likely to agree with statements like “I would rather work alongside people of my
same ethnic origin.”

Richeson said, “Yes, there have been gains in policy like allowing interracial marriage and
discrimination laws, but when it comes to our interpersonal biases, it’s simply not true that we just
need to wait for the few old racist men left in the South to die off and then we’ll be fine. The rhetoric
for racism is still in place. The environment for racism is still there. Unless we change that, we can't
lessen racism.”

So, the takeaway from my reading of this section could explain why 63 million (mostly white) people
may have overlooked Trump's racism and bigotry: he's white, just like them.

Progressive white Americans do not really want inclusivity: "I would rather work alongside people of
my same ethnic origin." Therefore, racial equality in this country may be a pipe dream as long as
white people are in a majority. So, the reason why white America hasn't given up on racism, in my
opinion, is because there are too many white Americans living with implicit racial biases -- thanks to
Mother Nature -- and not enough minorities living with their own set of implicit biases to countervail.

But, that day is coming.

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Reply #16 posted 03/03/18 4:39am

uPtoWnNY

OldFriends4Sale said:

Are men still raping women (whether it is in Europe Africa Asian or North America)?

Why hasn't Men given up sexism?

Like Uptown said, it is a human thing.

Various ethnic groups in Africa dominated other African ethnic groups, ruled and did things very similar to 'racism' same thing happened in Europe, same in Asia etc

And things things still exist in various degrees

I've dealt with just as much prejudice from other people of color as I have from white folks. Asians, Arabs, Indians, Latinos...many of them don't think much of black folks either. That's the way of the world.....as long as mfers obey the law and stay away from me and mine, they can think whatever they want. I don't let their ignorance stop me from doing my thing.

Shit, my father was on the NYPD during the 60s, 70s through the early 80s, dealing with redneck co-workers. He beat them all by making captain. He always told me & my brother knowledge is power.

[Edited 3/3/18 4:49am]

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Reply #17 posted 03/03/18 4:42am

deebee

avatar

Dasein said:

Taken from this article:

“In some ways, it’s super simple. People learn to be whatever their society and culture teaches them.
We often assume that it takes parents actively teaching their kids, for them to be racist. The truth is
that unless parents actively teach kids not to be racists, they will be,” said Jennifer Richeson, a Yale
University social psychologist. “This is not the product of some deep-seated, evil heart that
is cultivated. It comes from the environment, the air all around us.”

Richeson compares children's instinctive formation of biases to a student at a new school. “When you
arrive at a new high school. You are instinctively trying to figure out who’s cool, who’s not, who’s a
nerd, who gets beat up? Kids quickly acquire these associations,” she said.


“An us-them mentality is unfortunately a really basic part of our biology,” said Eric Knowles, a
psychology professor at New York University who studies prejudice and politics.
“There’s a lot of
evidence that people have an ingrained even evolved tendency toward people who are in our so-
called 'in group.'”




However, the quote continues: "But how we define those groups, and the tendency to draw divisions along racial lines, is social, not biological," [Knowles] added. “We can draw those lines in a number of ways that society tells us,” he said.

That would seem to be crucial in relation to the question of how far biological determinism can explain racism: even if we grant, for the sake of argument, that an "us-them mentality is ... a really basic part of our biology", it's only through social mechanisms that that capacity gets attuned to formulating the 'Us' and 'Them' categories along specifically racial lines. And those social mechanisms, like most social mechanisms, can be altered - or, indeed, reproduced.

There's a good example of this in a clip from a Russell Brand interview with Prof. Paul Gilroy (at 3:34). Gilroy mentions an incident with a woman in the Post Office in which she tells him how the boundaries of inclusion that once excluded Black people have now shifted to encompass them. However, the new Other, demonised in the culture, is, as she sees it, the Muslim. To some extent, that does reflect a shift in British codes of racial and ethnic inclusion/exclusion.



Even beyond that, though, we can make too much of a singular causal mechanism, and one located in the psyche at that. Scientists rightly abstract a single variable (e.g. racial in-group bias) to see how it functions and how it can be manipulated by other variables (e.g. reading about changing demography - and presumably interpreting this through prevailing narratives of threat and being rendered superfluous). However, in complex reality, causal mechanisms never work in isolation; they are constantly being modified by other mechanisms. For example, science can show that we all have violent and aggressive drives, which are indeed part of our evolutionary inheritance, yet we can learn to modify these, and they may, in any case, be effectual to differing degrees depending on how experience has conditioned us. Löic Wacquant talked in an interview about how the experience of prison conditions people into exercising their biological capacities to be distrustful, wary, fearful, ready to fight, etc. But other environments and forms of activity (he cites the boxing gym) help cultivate other positive drives and capacities that are part of our rich and complex evolutionary heritage.

It's a fairly gloomy picture if we're all biologically accursed and only demography can save us, no? And certainly a rather ahistorical one. King might as well have stood up and said, "Breed, people! Breed!"

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #18 posted 03/03/18 5:00am

Dasein

^

Oh, there is no doubt that how we categorize people according to race is certainly a mechanism
developed socially. But, I think what is important to note here is that the desire to categorize and
discriminate in and of itself seems to be biologically determined. Being a racist is perfectly hu-
man therefore and also reveals our "rich and complex evolutionary heritage" just as much as
modifying natural drives to rape, pillage, kill and then sublimating these forces into boxing does . . .
hell, even moreso!

I'm no zoologist or biologist, obviously, but every single animal on this planet discriminates and
wants to be near or with its own kind and "constructs" hierarchies that are discriminatory towards
each other within that division too. Doesn't that tell you something about what it means to be
here on the planet as an animal?

I bet you don't hang out with capitalists all the time, eh?!

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Reply #19 posted 03/03/18 5:13am

deebee

avatar

Dasein said:

^

Oh, there is no doubt that how we categorize people according to race is certainly a mechanism
developed socially. But, I think what is important to note here is that the desire to categorize and
discriminate in and of itself seems to be biologically determined. Being a racist is perfectly hu-
man therefore and also reveals our "rich and complex evolutionary heritage" just as much as
modifying natural drives to rape, pillage, kill and then sublimating these forces into boxing does . . .
hell, even moreso!

I'm no zoologist or biologist, obviously, but every single animal on this planet discriminates and
wants to be near or with its own kind and "constructs" hierarchies that are discriminatory towards
each other within that division too. Doesn't that tell you something about what it means to be
here on the planet as an animal?

I bet you don't hang out with capitalists all the time, eh?!

^ But no other animals sit around debating the rights and wrongs of it, as they lack (as far as we know) the capacity to. There are no dolphins quoting scientific studies and their ethical import on a message board somewhere, as part of a collective endeavour to think about how we should behave. So I want a conception of the human being that takes account of that capacity for rationality (made much of by Enlightenment types) and the animalistic drives (that seem to function unabated, according to biological determinists), and indeed the way both are implicated in our interactions with complex social structures, which they can help to transform.

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #20 posted 03/03/18 5:39am

Dasein

deebee said:

Dasein said:

^

Oh, there is no doubt that how we categorize people according to race is certainly a mechanism
developed socially. But, I think what is important to note here is that the desire to categorize and
discriminate in and of itself seems to be biologically determined. Being a racist is perfectly hu-
man therefore and also reveals our "rich and complex evolutionary heritage" just as much as
modifying natural drives to rape, pillage, kill and then sublimating these forces into boxing does . . .
hell, even moreso!

I'm no zoologist or biologist, obviously, but every single animal on this planet discriminates and
wants to be near or with its own kind and "constructs" hierarchies that are discriminatory towards
each other within that division too. Doesn't that tell you something about what it means to be
here on the planet as an animal?

I bet you don't hang out with capitalists all the time, eh?!

^ But no other animals sit around debating the rights and wrongs of it, as they lack (as far as we know) the capacity to. There are no dolphins quoting scientific studies and their ethical import on a message board somewhere, as part of a collective endeavour to think about how we should behave. So I want a conception of the human being that takes account of that capacity for rationality (made much of by Enlightenment types) and the animalistic drives (that seem to function unabated, according to biological determinists), and indeed the way both are implicated in our interactions with complex social structures, which they can help to transform.


Deebee, there is no argument here about the distinction between humans and all the other
animal species that can't abstract as we can. I think what I'm saying to you is that in your
understanding of what it means to be human (we have the capacity for rationality whilst be-
ing biologically determined by animalistic drives), you should acknowledge that the latter
often has much more of a force in deciding how we live and operate and function as a hu-
man than how our ability to rationalize as shaped by society (let's not forget that rationality
is itself influenced by human traditions) does.

The fact that we apply "rationality" to dissuade us from being too discriminatory tells you
that the ability to discriminate is a powerful natural urge within us, so we use reason to check
our instincts to discriminate. More condemningly, we use reason (casuistry?) to convince our-
selves that inclusivity is to be valued over exclusivity. The reason why it (inclusivity) doesn't
work and why white Amurikkka hasn't given up on practicing some form of racism is because
our natural urge is to discriminate along some line.



[Edited 3/3/18 6:01am]

[Edited 3/3/18 6:02am]

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Reply #21 posted 03/03/18 6:05am

djThunderfunk

avatar

jjhunsecker said:

benni said:


Do you really think that was the only reason he won? I mean, I lean towards that thought myself, but I don't want to believe that we have nearly 63 million racists in the country. sad

It was an ESSENTIAL reason, in my opinion, if not the only one . I'm not saying all 63 million of those voters were racist...but I do say that they all OVERLOOKED Trump's racism and bigotry (along with his misogyny)and did not see this as disqualifying...


I know people that voted for the trumpclown. They're not racists. More than a few of them voted for Obama. Twice. They didn't "overlook" his racism, because they don't believe he is racist. Almost every single one of them, when asked why they voted for him give the same answer: Hillary. They're also not sexist. Their reasons for voting against Hillary varied, but none seem to care that she's a woman. For some it was Bengahzi, for some it was the nomination stolen from Bernie, for some it was the "Clinton Crimes". For some it was a combination...

Just sayin', your focus on trumpclown's racism misses a broad spectrum of voter motivation.



[Edited 3/3/18 6:07am]

We were HERE, where were you?

4 those that knew the number and didn't call... fk all y'all!
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Reply #22 posted 03/03/18 6:10am

Dasein

Dasein said:

deebee said:

^ But no other animals sit around debating the rights and wrongs of it, as they lack (as far as we know) the capacity to. There are no dolphins quoting scientific studies and their ethical import on a message board somewhere, as part of a collective endeavour to think about how we should behave. So I want a conception of the human being that takes account of that capacity for rationality (made much of by Enlightenment types) and the animalistic drives (that seem to function unabated, according to biological determinists), and indeed the way both are implicated in our interactions with complex social structures, which they can help to transform.


Deebee, there is no argument here about the distinction between humans and all the other
animal species that can't abstract as we can. I think what I'm saying to you is that in your
understanding of what it means to be human (we have the capacity for rationality whilst be-
ing biologically determined by animalistic drives), you should acknowledge that the latter
often has much more of a force in deciding how we live and operate and function as a hu-
man than how our ability to rationalize as shaped by society (let's not forget that rationality
is itself influenced by human traditions) does.

The fact that we apply "rationality" to dissuade us from being too discriminatory tells you
that the ability to discriminate is a powerful natural urge within us, so we use reason to check
our instincts to discriminate. More condemningly, we use reason (casuistry?) to convince our-
selves that inclusivity is to be valued over exclusivity. The reason why it (inclusivity) doesn't
work and why white Amurikkka hasn't given up on practicing some form of racism is because
our natural urge is to discriminate along some line.



[Edited 3/3/18 6:01am]

[Edited 3/3/18 6:02am]


We can apply what you surmised in another thread where you wondered what power does to
police officers and how power corrupts the individual police officer who possesses it so that he
mistreats those he's supposed to serve and protect to this very situation too: what has power
done to straight white men throughout their reign other than that which is corruptive?

You take our biological urge to discriminate (place like with like; be with those who look, think,
and act like us) and combine it with centuries of wielding corruptive power and voila! White
America remains racist in some form or fashion.

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Reply #23 posted 03/03/18 6:42am

SuperFurryAnim
al

avatar

Stereotypes are actually part of the survival mechanism and stereotypes are driving force of racism. I don't think racism will ever go away completely but overt racism will go away. Teal explains it best.

God has a plan. Trust the plan.
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Reply #24 posted 03/03/18 8:08am

wizardtelly

Most white and non-black person's of color are somewhat delusional to reality, and believe this fallacy that "WE ARE ALL ONE" without realizing we are not treated as such.

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Reply #25 posted 03/03/18 8:15am

Dasein

wizardtelly said:

Most white and non-black person's of color are somewhat delusional to reality, and believe this fallacy that "WE ARE ALL ONE" without realizing we are not treated as such.


Preach.

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Reply #26 posted 03/03/18 8:25am

deebee

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Dasein said:

deebee said:

^ But no other animals sit around debating the rights and wrongs of it, as they lack (as far as we know) the capacity to. There are no dolphins quoting scientific studies and their ethical import on a message board somewhere, as part of a collective endeavour to think about how we should behave. So I want a conception of the human being that takes account of that capacity for rationality (made much of by Enlightenment types) and the animalistic drives (that seem to function unabated, according to biological determinists), and indeed the way both are implicated in our interactions with complex social structures, which they can help to transform.


Deebee, there is no argument here about the distinction between humans and all the other
animal species that can't abstract as we can.
No, no: there is. When you say, "[E]very single animal on this planet discriminates and
wants to be near or with its own kind and "constructs" hierarchies that are discriminatory towards each other within that division too. Doesn't that tell you something about what it means to be here on the planet as an animal?", you are precisely disattending to the distinction between humans and all the other animal species that can't abstract as we can, and our vastly superior capacity for reflection and behaviour modification in light of that. You may not want to be saying that, but that will require rectifying your argument. Otherwise, it's cheap: "Yes, yes, I agree with all that, but..... [insert example that completely neglects that aspect]", etc.

[...]

The fact that we apply "rationality" to dissuade us from being too discriminatory tells you
that the ability to discriminate is a powerful natural urge within us, so we use reason to check
our instincts to discriminate. More condemningly, we use reason (casuistry?) to convince our-
selves that inclusivity is to be valued over exclusivity. The reason why it (inclusivity) doesn't
work and why white Amurikkka hasn't given up on practicing some form of racism is because
our natural urge is to discriminate along some line.
I'll note again that there is a quiet elision here of the capacity "to discriminate along some line" and the specific form of discrimination that is White racism. Again, that was accepted rhetorically further up the page, but taken back in the next breath. But a mode of investigation attuned to social structure as well as biologically-determined cognitive drives would prompt you to ask:

1) What are the conditions in which that capacity to classify is actualised en masse along racial lines? (Why not nationalism? Why not sexism? Why not religious hatred and antisemitism? Why not prejudice based on sexual orientation?)


But you also have a series of additional unanswered questions, in addition to the above, if you want to explain complex socio-historical phenomena using a single cognitive variable:

2) Under what circumstances does the natural capacity for classification automatically mean hatred? I classify women as 'Other' to me, yet I'm attracted to them. (I don't seek a romantic relationship of 'like with like' - not that there's anything wrong with that! This is common. Why, if we 'naturally' classify and oppose those different to us?) People regularly go on holiday to experience Otherness, finding the Other interesting, eye-opening, enlivening - just as my experience of the one I've classified as the feminine Other - or love to listen to music or meet people unlike themselves. Those in interracial relationships certainly exercise their ability to classify, but they find Otherness appealing - so classification alone can't account for racism. (Indeed, this model of racism describes classification as one step in a more complex process that constitutes prejudice; itself not automatically translated into to discrimination. What accounts for the other steps?)

3)Why is this apparently natural and inherent racist drive so much stronger in some than in others - so much so that the actions of some seem to be working against it? Some White people join racist movements; some become activists who live and even die fighting racism. Is that simply the luck of genetics, like getting big feet, or a pointy nose? Or does the distinction not even exist, i.e. all are similarly racist, even if they don't show it? (And, blimey Moses, if it doesn't, why do White liberals fall over themselves to fawn over Obama - in fact, the whole family of Obamas? lol)

4) Why is this apparently natural and inherent racist drive stronger in some historical periods than in others? Or stronger in some societies than others? Why does it modify its form between periods?

I would suggest that one has, at the very least, to look to the way in the particular biological capacity you're focussing on is actualised/not actualised in particular ways in individuals' interactions with the social structures in which they are embedded within particular times and places; and, of course, how this capacity interacts with other capacities (just because one has found an article on one doesn't mean that's all there is!), such as the equally natural and pre-given sense of distributive justice highlighted by the experiment below, as well as how individuals also have the capacity to have experiences, reflect on them, read, discuss, love, witness a demonstration, etc etc, and modify their thought an behaviour in light of that.

[Edited 3/3/18 8:59am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #27 posted 03/03/18 8:57am

deebee

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Dasein said:

Dasein said:


Deebee, there is no argument here about the distinction between humans and all the other
animal species that can't abstract as we can. I think what I'm saying to you is that in your
understanding of what it means to be human (we have the capacity for rationality whilst be-
ing biologically determined by animalistic drives), you should acknowledge that the latter
often has much more of a force in deciding how we live and operate and function as a hu-
man than how our ability to rationalize as shaped by society (let's not forget that rationality
is itself influenced by human traditions) does.

The fact that we apply "rationality" to dissuade us from being too discriminatory tells you
that the ability to discriminate is a powerful natural urge within us, so we use reason to check
our instincts to discriminate. More condemningly, we use reason (casuistry?) to convince our-
selves that inclusivity is to be valued over exclusivity. The reason why it (inclusivity) doesn't
work and why white Amurikkka hasn't given up on practicing some form of racism is because
our natural urge is to discriminate along some line.



[Edited 3/3/18 6:01am]

[Edited 3/3/18 6:02am]


We can apply what you surmised in another thread where you wondered what power does to
police officers and how power corrupts the individual police officer who possesses it so that he
mistreats those he's supposed to serve and protect to this very situation too: what has power
done to straight white men throughout their reign other than that which is corruptive?

You take our biological urge to discriminate (place like with like; be with those who look, think,
and act like us) and combine it with centuries of wielding corruptive power and voila! White
America remains racist in some form or fashion.

Well, what I would say is that I've much less of a problem with this contention where you do at least suggest combining the singular cognitive variable of such interest with a genuine investigation of the historical circumstances that activate it in particular forms at particular times (and could mean other circumstances where it's not activated, or is activated against other groups, e.g. the ruling class). That kind of complexity and sociological investigation is what I've been arguing for, contra the assertion that a single 'magic bullet' theory in which a biological capacity can, on its own, explain a complex historical phenomenon like racism. It can't.

[Edited 3/3/18 9:11am]

"Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced." - James Baldwin
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Reply #28 posted 03/03/18 9:17am

Empress

uPtoWnNY said:



OldFriends4Sale said:




Are men still raping women (whether it is in Europe Africa Asian or North America)?



Why hasn't Men given up sexism?



Like Uptown said, it is a human thing.




Various ethnic groups in Africa dominated other African ethnic groups, ruled and did things very similar to 'racism' same thing happened in Europe, same in Asia etc


And things things still exist in various degrees




I've dealt with just as much prejudice from other people of color as I have from white folks. Asians, Arabs, Indians, Latinos...many of them don't think much of black folks either. That's the way of the world.....as long as mfers obey the law and stay away from me and mine, they can think whatever they want. I don't let their ignorance stop me from doing my thing.



Shit, my father was on the NYPD during the 60s, 70s through the early 80s, dealing with redneck co-workers. He beat them all by making captain. He always told me & my brother knowledge is power.

[Edited 3/3/18 4:49am]



You're one smart and enlightened man Uptown
[Edited 3/3/18 9:18am]
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Reply #29 posted 03/03/18 11:00am

2freaky4church
1

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Jane Elliott stresses that racism is ignorance not evil.

You mention race in this country the whites go, what about me?

"My motherfucker's so cool sheep count him."
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