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Thread started 07/16/17 8:39am

hausofmoi7

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"Why can't the U.S left get Venezuela right?" - Venezuela is being hacked.

Forces within the U.S are currently aiding Venezuela's elites to "hack" its democratically elected government, which also happens to be a socialist one.
The country has recently seen outbreaks of violent right wing protests in support of overthrowing the government, these protests appear to be fueled by the oligarchs who have been attempting to privatise the countries resources.
The western media naturally is reporting in favour of the oligarchs and the violent protests. The article below asks why the western "left" are not supporting Venezuela?




https://www.counterpunch....a-right-2/


As Venezuela’s fascist-minded oligarchy conspires with U.S. imperialism to overthrow the democratically elected government of Nicolas Maduro, few in the U.S. seem to care.

Instead of denouncing rightwing violence that aims at regime change, many on the U.S. left have stayed silent, or opted to give an evenhanded analysis that supports neither the Maduro government nor the oligarchy trying to violently overthrow it. Rather, the left prioritizes its energy on lecturing on Maduro’s “authoritarianism” and the failures of “Chavismo.”

This approach allows leftists a cool emotional detachment to the fate of the poor in Venezuela, and clean hands that would otherwise be soiled by engaging with the messy, real life class struggle that is the Venezuelan revolution.

A “pox on both houses” analysis omits the U.S. government’s role in collaborating with Venezuela’s oligarchs. The decades-long crimes of imperialism against Venezuela is aided and abetted by the silence of the left, or by its murky analysis that minimizes the perpetrator’s actions, focusing negative attention on the victim precisely at the moment of attack.

Any analysis of a former colonial country that doesn’t begin with the struggle of self-determination against imperialism is a dead letter, since the x-factor of imperialism has always been a dominant variable in the Venezuelan equation, as books by Eva Gollinger and others have thoroughly explained, and further demonstrated by the ongoing intervention in Latin America by an endless succession of U.S. presidents.

The Venezuelan-initiated anti-imperialist movement was strong enough that a new gravitational center was created, that pushed most of Latin America out of the grasp of U.S. domination for the first time in nearly a hundred years. This historic achievement remains minimized for much of the U.S. left, who remain indifferent or uneducated about the revolutionary significance of self-determination for oppressed nations abroad, as well as oppressed peoples inside of the U.S.

A thousand valid criticisms can be made of Chavez, but he chose sides in the class fault lines and took bold action at critical junctures. Posters of Chavez remain in the homes of Venezuela’s poorest barrios because he proved in action that he was a champion for the poor, while fighting and winning many pitched battles against the oligarchy who wildly celebrated his death

And while it’s necessary to deeply critique the Maduro government, the present situation requires the political clarity to take a bold, unqualified stance against the U.S.-backed opposition, rather than a rambling “nonpartisan” analysis that pretends a life or death struggle isn’t currently taking place.

Yes, a growing number of Venezuelans are incredibly frustrated by Maduro, and yes, his policies have exacerbated the current crisis, but while an active counter-revolutionary offensive continues the political priority needs to be aimed squarely against the oligarchy, not Maduro. There remains a mass movement of revolutionaries in Venezuela dedicated to Chavismo and to defending Maduro’s government against the violent anti-regime tactics, but it’s these labor and community groups that the U.S. left never mentions, as it would pollute their analysis.

The U.S. left seems blissfully unaware of the consequences of the oligarchy stepping into the power vacuum if Maduro was successfully ousted. Such a shoddy analysis can be found in Jacobin’s recent article, Being Honest About Venezuela, which focuses on the problems of Maduro’s government while ignoring the honest reality of the terror the oligarchy would unleash if it returned to power.

How did the U.S. left get it so wrong?

They’ve allowed themselves to get distracted by the zig-zags at the political surface, rather than the rupturing fault lines of class struggle below. They see only leaders and are blinded to how the masses have engaged with them.

Regardless of Maduro’s many stumbles, it’s the rich who are revolting in Venezuela, and if they’re successful it will be the workers and poor who suffer a terrible fate. An analysis of Venezuela that ignores this basic fact belongs either in the trash bin or in the newspapers of the oligarchy. Confusing class interests, or mistaking counter-revolution for revolution in politics is as disorienting as mistaking up for down, night for day.

The overarching issue remains the same since the Venezuelan revolution erupted in 1989’s Caracazo uprising, which initiated a revolutionary movement of working and poor people spurred to action by IMF austerity measures. How did Venezuela’s oligarchy respond to the 1989 protests? By killing hundreds if not thousands of people. Their return to power would unleash similar if not bloodier statistics.

In Venezuela the revolutionary flame has burned longer than most revolutions, its energy funneled into various channels; from rioting, street demonstrations, land and factory occupations, new political parties and radicalized labor-union federations and into the backbone of support for Hugo Chavez’s project, which, to varying degrees supported and even spearheaded many of these initiatives, encouraging the masses to participate directly in politics.

Chavez’s electoral victory meant — and still means — that the oligarchy lost control of the government and much of the state apparatus, a rare event in the life of a nation under capitalism. This contradiction is central to the confusion of the U.S. left: the ruling class lost control of the state, but the oligarchy retained control of key sectors of the economy, including the media.

But who has control of the state if not the oligarchy? It’s too simplistic to say the “working class” has power, because Maduro has not acted as a consistent leader of the working class, seeming more interested in trying to mediate between classes by making concessions to the oligarchy. Maduro’s overly-bureaucratic government also limits the amount of direct democracy the working class needs before the term “worker state” can be applied.

But Maduro’s power base remains the same as it was under Chavez: the working and poor people, and to that extent Maduro can be compared to a trade union president who ignores his members in order to seek a deal with the boss.

A trade union, no matter how bureaucratic, is still rooted in the workplace, its power dependent on dues money and collective action of working people. And even a weak union is better than no union, since removing the protection of the union opens the door to sweeping attacks from the boss that inevitably lower wages, destroy benefits and result in layoffs of the most “outspoken” workers. This is why union members defend their union from corporate attack, even if the leader of the union is in bed with the boss.

History is replete with governments brought forth by revolutionary movements but which failed to take the actions necessary to complete the revolution, resulting in a successful counter-revolution. These revolutionary governments often succeed in breaking the chains of neo-colonialism and allowed for an epoch of social reforms and working class initiative, depending on how long they lasted. Their downfall always results in a counter-revolutionary wave of violence, and sometimes a sea of blood.

This has happened dozens of times across Africa, Asia, and Latin America, where the class divisions are sharper, where imperialism plays a larger role, and where the class dynamics are more variegated: the poor are poorer, there is a larger informal labor force, a larger section of small shopkeepers, larger rural population, etc.

Winning significant reforms under capitalism is incredibly difficult, even in rich countries; it is twice as difficult in former colonial countries, due to the death grip the oligarchy has on the economy plus the collaboration of imperialism, which intervenes in financial markets — or with bullets — to prevent the smallest reforms.

The example of Allende’s Chile could be compared to Maduro’s situation in Venezuela. Allende was far from perfect, but can anybody claim that Pinochet’s coup wasn’t a catastrophe for the Chilean working class? In Venezuela the counter-revolution would likely be more devastating, as the oligarchy would have to push back against decades of progress versus Allende’s short-lived government. If it came to power the street violence of the oligarchy would be given the resources of the state, aimed squarely at the working class and poor.

Maduro is no Chavez, it’s true, but he has kept most of Chavez’s victories intact, maintaining social programs in a time of crashing oil prices while the oligarchy demands “pro-market reforms.” He’s essentially kept the barking dogs of the oligarchy at bay, who, if unleashed, would ravage the working class.

The oligarchy has not accepted the balance of power that Chavez-Maduro have tilted in favor of the working class. A new social contract has not been cemented; it is being actively fought for in the streets. Maduro has made some concessions to the oligarchy it’s true, but they have not been fundamental concessions, while he’s left the fundamental victories of the revolution in tact.

The social contract we call Social Democracy in Europe wasn’t finalized until a wave of revolution struck after WWII. Although Maduro would likely be happy with such a social democratic agreement in Venezuela, such agreements have proven impossible in developing countries, especially at a time while global capitalism is attacking the social democratic reforms in the advanced countries.

The Venezuelan ruling class has no intention of accepting the reforms of Chavez, and why would they so long as U.S. imperialism invests heavily in regime change? A ruling class does not accept power-sharing until they face the prospect of losing everything. And nor should Venezuela’s working class accept a “social contract” under current conditions: they have unmet demands that require revolutionary action against the oligarchy. These contradictory pressures are at the heart of Venezuela’s still-unresolved class war, which inevitably leads either to revolutionary action from the left or a successful counter-revolution from the right.

Thus, for a U.S. leftist to declare that either side is equally bad is either bad politics or class treachery. Many leftists went bonkers over Syriza in Greece, and they were right to be hopeful. But after radical rhetoric Syriza succumbed to the demands of the IMF that included devastating neoliberal reforms of austerity cuts, privatizations and deregulation. Maduro has steadfastly refused such a path out of Venezuela’s economic crisis.

This is why Maduro is despised by the rich while the poor generally continue to support the government, although passively but occasionally in giant bursts, such as the hundreds thousands strong May Day mobilization in support of the government’s fight against the violent coup attempts, which was all but ignored by most western media outlets, since it spoiled the regime-change narrative of “everybody hates Maduro.”

The essential difference between Maduro and Chavez will make or break the revolution: while Chavez took action to constantly shift the balance of power in favor of the poor, Maduro simply attempts to maintain the balance of forces handed down to him by Chavez, hoping for some kind of “agreement” from an opposition that has consistently refused all compromise. His ridiculous naivety is a powerful motivating factor for the opposition, who see a stalled revolution in the way a lion views an injured zebra.

Venezuelan expert Jorge Martin explains in an excellent article, how the oligarchy would respond if it succeeded in removing Maduro.

1) they would massively cut public spending

2) implement mass layoffs of the public sector

3) destroy the key social programs of the revolution (health care, education, pension, housing, etc.)

4) there would be a privatization frenzy of public resources, though especially the crown jewel PDVSA, the oil company

5) massive deregulation, including turning back rights for labor and ethnic-minority groups

6) they would attack the organizations of the working class that came into existence or grew under the protection of the Chavez-Maduro governments

This is “Telling the Truth” about Venezuela. The U.S. left should know better, since the ruling class exposed what it would do during the Caracazo Uprising, and later when they briefly came to power in their 2002 coup: they aim to reverse everything, using any means necessary. The documentary “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” is still required watching about the 2002 coup.

Maduro may have finally learned his lesson: Venezuela’s crisis has forced him to double down on promoting the interests of the poor. When oil prices collapsed it was inevitable the government would enter a deep crisis, it had only two choices: deep neoliberal reforms or the deepening of the revolution. This will be the litmus test for Maduro, since the middle ground he sought disappeared.

Rather than begging for money from the International Monetary Fund —which would have demanded such Syriza-like reforms — Maduro instead encouraged workers to takeover idle factories while a General Motors factory was nationalized. A new neighborhood-based organization, CLAP, was created that distributes basic foodstuffs at subsidized prices that benefits millions of people.

On May Day this year, in front of hundreds of thousands of supporters, Maduro announced a Constituent Assembly, an attempt to re-engage the masses in the hopes of pushing forward the revolution by creating a new, more progressive constitution.

It’s true that Maduro is using the Constituent Assembly to overcome the obstruction of the oligarchy-dominated National Assembly — whose stated intention is to topple the government — but the U.S. left seems indifferent that Maduro is using the mobilization of the working class (the Constituent Assembly) to overcome the barriers of ruling class.

This distinction is critical: if the Constituent Assembly succeeds in pushing forward the revolution by directly engaging the masses, it will come at the expense of the oligarchy. The Constituent Assembly is being organized to promote more direct democracy, but sections of the U.S. left have been taken in by the U.S. media’s allegations of “authoritarianism.”

If working and poor people actively engage in the process of creating a new, more progressive constitution and this constitution is approved via referendum by a large majority, it will constitute an essential step forward for the revolution. If the masses are unengaged or the referendum fails, it may signify the death knell of Chavismo and the return of the oligarchy.

And while Maduro is right to use the state as a repressive agent against the oligarchy, an over reliance on the state repression only leads to more contradictions, rather than relying on the self-activity of the workers and poor. Revolutions cannot be won by administrative tinkering, but rather by revolutionary measures consciously implemented by the vast majority. At bottom it’s the actions of ordinary working people that make or break a revolution; if the masses are lulled to sleep the revolution is lost. They must be unleashed not ignored.

It’s clear that Maduro’s politics have not been capable of leading the revolution to success, and therefore his government requires deep criticism combined with organized protest. But there are two kinds of protest: legitimate protest that arises from the needs of working and poor people, and the counter-revolutionary protest based in the neighborhoods of the rich that aim to restore the power of the oligarchy.

Confusing these two kinds of protests are dangerous, but the U.S. left has done precisely this. Maduro is accused of being authoritarian for using police to stop the far-right’s violent “student protests” that seek to restore the oligarchy. Of the many reasons to criticize Maduro this isn’t one of them.

If a rightwing coup succeeds in Venezuela tomorrow, the U.S. left will weep by the carnage that ensues, while not recognizing that their inaction contributed to the bloodshed. By living in the heart of imperialism the U.S. left has a duty to go beyond critiques from afar to direct action at home.

Protesting the Vietnam war helped save the lives of Vietnamese, while the organizing in the 1980’s against the “dirty wars” in Central America limited the destruction levied by the U.S.-backed governments. In both cases the left fell short of what was needed, but at least they understood what was at stake and took action. Now consider the U.S. left of 2017, who can’t lift a finger to re-start the antiwar movement and who supported Bernie Sanders regardless of his longstanding affection for imperialism.

The “pink tide” that blasted imperialism out of much of Latin America is being reversed, but Venezuela has always been the motor-force of the leftward shift, and the bloodshed required to reverse the revolution will be remembered forever, if it’s allowed to happen. Their lives matter too.



.
[Edited 7/16/17 8:44am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #1 posted 07/16/17 9:41am

midnightmover

Very interesting.

“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #2 posted 07/16/17 10:24am

2freaky4church
1

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We supported the coup in 2002! Then the bankers swooped in. Chavez was turned into Satan. Satan because he was brown, because he was indigenous, because he was a socialist. Believe it or not Venezuela is quite capatalist.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #3 posted 07/16/17 6:19pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

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What are you talking about? It's a democratically elected government. The right, on the other hand, has been trying to manipulate the government for its own ends for a long time.


You right-wingers are as uninformed and ignorant as ever.

Facebook is for losers.
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Reply #4 posted 07/16/17 7:43pm

214

I don't know what to believe. sad

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Reply #5 posted 07/17/17 12:13am

hausofmoi7

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Ugot2shakesumthin said:

What are you talking about? It's a democratically elected government. The right, on the other hand, has been trying to manipulate the government for its own ends for a long time.


You right-wingers are as uninformed and ignorant as ever.



Who is this directed to? I think everyone in this thread either agrees with you or hasn't made an opinion.
Venezuela and its current democratically elected government deserves the support of like minded people in the west.
I saw a documentary about Venezuela that detailed how the elites and the right wing are purposely making certain necessary items unavailable to the public and generally making things harder for people in hope of driving them to oppose the current government.
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #6 posted 07/17/17 12:16am

hausofmoi7

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Documentary piece I referenced in previous post.

[Edited 7/17/17 0:17am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #7 posted 07/17/17 6:06am

poppys

How does your left feel about Venezuela?

Y'all have a habit of attacking the "US left" (HRC as antichrist, Bernie would have won yada yada yada). Sometimes it puts you in the same bed as the Hillary & Obama hating Trumpers but that's just candy for the rest of us to read.

Meanwhile, we're a little busy with Cheeto Pres right now, thanks.

Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #8 posted 07/17/17 6:43am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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HOW DOES VENZUELA VOTING WORK???

WHAT IS PROPAGANDA?

I AM AMERICAN. ANTI-COMMUNIST. ANTI-FASCIST.
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Reply #9 posted 07/17/17 6:44am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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214 said:

I don't know what to believe. sad

Do some research.

I AM AMERICAN. ANTI-COMMUNIST. ANTI-FASCIST.
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Reply #10 posted 07/17/17 7:42am

2freaky4church
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214, check out Mark Weisbrot.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Reply #11 posted 07/17/17 1:22pm

214

hausofmoi7 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

What are you talking about? It's a democratically elected government. The right, on the other hand, has been trying to manipulate the government for its own ends for a long time.


You right-wingers are as uninformed and ignorant as ever.

Who is this directed to? I think everyone in this thread either agrees with you or hasn't made an opinion. Venezuela and its current democratically elected government deserves the support of like minded people in the west. I saw a documentary about Venezuela that detailed how the elites and the right wing are purposely making certain necessary items unavailable to the public and generally making things harder for people in hope of driving them to oppose the current government.

It has sense.

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Reply #12 posted 07/17/17 1:22pm

214

SuperFurryAnimal said:

214 said:

I don't know what to believe. sad

Do some research.

Where?

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Reply #13 posted 07/17/17 8:56pm

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:

How does your left feel about Venezuela?

Y'all have a habit of attacking the "US left" (HRC as antichrist, Bernie would have won yada yada yada). Sometimes it puts you in the same bed as the Hillary & Obama hating Trumpers but that's just candy for the rest of us to read.

Meanwhile, we're a little busy with Cheeto Pres right now, thanks.


Except the difference is the trump admin and some of his supporters also support the same policies the Democrats do.
For example overthrowing the Venezuelan government.
I don't subscribe to your view that U.S domestic issues are more important or "exceptional" than others.
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #14 posted 07/17/17 11:12pm

hausofmoi7

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Donald Trump has said he will sanction Venezuela if a constituent assembly proceeds.
Trump also called Maduro a bad leader. That is not a case of the pot calling the kettle black but is instead Trump calling out people who he could never stand next to or compare to.
Trump needs to keep the progress of the Bolivarian revolution out his mouth and the people of Venezuela out of his distructive path.



.
[Edited 7/18/17 5:33am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #15 posted 07/18/17 1:08am

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:



Meanwhile, we're a little busy with Cheeto Pres right now, thanks.


Well come get your boy.
This is is why the article above is directed at the U.S left.
Trump has said today that he is going to liberate the Venezuelan oil, I mean people, by sanctioning them.[\b]


https://www.reuters.com/a...SKBN1A22EJ



".... Venezuela is the third largest oil supplier after Canada and Saudi Arabia. It accounted for 8 percent of U.S. oil imports in March, according to U.S. government figures."





#WORLD NEWS
JULY 18, 2017 / 9:39 AM / 18 MINUTES AGO
Trump threatens sanctions if Venezuela creates Constituent Assembly
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump threatened on Monday to take "strong and swift economic actions" if Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro goes ahead with plans to create a super-legislature known as a Constituent Assembly in a July 30 vote.

"Yesterday, the Venezuelan people again made clear that they stand for democracy, freedom and rule of law. Yet their strong and courageous actions continue to be ignored by a bad leader who dreams of becoming a dictator," Trump said in a statement issued by the White House.

"The United States will not stand by as Venezuela crumbles. If the Maduro regime imposes its Constituent Assembly on July 30, the United States will take strong and swift economic actions," Trump said.

Maduro's foes are demanding a presidential election and want to stop the leftist leader's plan to create the Constituent Assembly, which would have the power to rewrite the constitution and annul the opposition-led legislature.

On Sunday, 98 percent of opposition supporters in an unofficial vote rejected the proposed assembly.

Maduro insists opposition leaders are U.S. pawns intent on sabotaging the economy and bringing him down through violence as part of an international right-wing conspiracy led by Washington and fanned by private domestic and foreign media.

Senior White House officials told Reuters last month the Trump administration was considering sanctions on Venezuela's vital energy sector, including state oil company PDVSA, a major escalation in U.S. efforts to pressure the country's government amid a crackdown on the opposition.

The idea of striking at the core of Venezuela’s economy, which relies on oil for some 95 percent of export revenues, has been discussed at high levels of the administration as part of a wide-ranging review of U.S. options.

The White House officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters the United States could hit PDVSA as part of a “sectoral” sanctions package that would take aim at the OPEC nation’s entire energy industry for the first time.

They made clear the administration was moving cautiously, mindful that if such an unprecedented step was taken, it could deepen the country’s economic and social crisis, in which millions suffer food shortages and soaring inflation.

Another complicating factor would be the potential impact on oil shipments to the United States, for which Venezuela is the third largest oil supplier after Canada and Saudi Arabia. It accounted for 8 percent of U.S. oil imports in March, according to U.S. government figures.

.
[b][Edited 7/18/17 1:20am]

"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #16 posted 07/18/17 6:05am

poppys

hausofmoi7 said:

poppys said:

How does your left feel about Venezuela?

Y'all have a habit of attacking the "US left" (HRC as antichrist, Bernie would have won yada yada yada). Sometimes it puts you in the same bed as the Hillary & Obama hating Trumpers but that's just candy for the rest of us to read.

Meanwhile, we're a little busy with Cheeto Pres right now, thanks.

Except the difference is the trump admin and some of his supporters also support the same policies the Democrats do. For example overthrowing the Venezuelan government. I don't subscribe to your view that U.S domestic issues are more important or "exceptional" than others.

I didn't say our issues were more important or "exceptional" than others - you said that.

Which way do you want it? Dog the "US left" as all-powerful and fucking up your world or scorn us for not being powerful enough to solve the problems you want solved?

You never answered the question. What is your country's "left" doing about Venezuela? Why don't you focus on that for a change?

Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #17 posted 07/18/17 6:26am

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:



hausofmoi7 said:


poppys said:

How does your left feel about Venezuela?

Y'all have a habit of attacking the "US left" (HRC as antichrist, Bernie would have won yada yada yada). Sometimes it puts you in the same bed as the Hillary & Obama hating Trumpers but that's just candy for the rest of us to read.

Meanwhile, we're a little busy with Cheeto Pres right now, thanks.



Except the difference is the trump admin and some of his supporters also support the same policies the Democrats do. For example overthrowing the Venezuelan government. I don't subscribe to your view that U.S domestic issues are more important or "exceptional" than others.

I didn't say our issues were more important or "exceptional" than others - you said that.

Which way do you want it? Dog the "US left" as all-powerful and fucking up your world or scorn us for not being powerful enough to solve the problems you want solved?

You never answered the question. What is your country's "left" doing about Venezuela? Why don't you focus on that for a change?


You dismissed this issue with a comment about having your own domestic problems with Trump.
No one is asking the U.S to do anything, quite the opposite.
People want them to leave Venezuela alone.
Allow Venezuela to trade and dont sanction them.
Don't allow forces in the United.States to destabilize the country and overthrow the government.



.
[Edited 7/18/17 6:27am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #18 posted 07/18/17 7:01am

hausofmoi7

avatar

poppys said:



hausofmoi7 said:


poppys said:

How does your left feel about Venezuela?

Y'all have a habit of attacking the "US left" (HRC as antichrist, Bernie would have won yada yada yada). Sometimes it puts you in the same bed as the Hillary & Obama hating Trumpers but that's just candy for the rest of us to read.

Meanwhile, we're a little busy with Cheeto Pres right now, thanks.



Except the difference is the trump admin and some of his supporters also support the same policies the Democrats do. For example overthrowing the Venezuelan government. I don't subscribe to your view that U.S domestic issues are more important or "exceptional" than others.

You never answered the question. What is your country's "left" doing about Venezuela? Why don't you focus on that for a change?



The country I live in is also silent on the issue. so I agree with the sentiment of the article being applied to not just the U.S left but all people who's governance has some influence with the U.S.
The article was directed towards the U.S left as it is the U.S itself that is attacking Venezuela.



.
[Edited 7/18/17 7:34am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #19 posted 07/18/17 7:02am

poppys

Don't allow forces in the United States to destabilize Venezuela.

^^ Yeah, I'll get right on that. Meanwhile, why don't you do something besides blaming the "US left" for something in every thread. The right is in power now, by the way.

[Edited 7/18/17 7:05am]

Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #20 posted 07/18/17 7:13am

hausofmoi7

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poppys said:

Don't allow forces in the United States to destabilize Venezuela.

^^ Yeah, I'll get right on that.

[Edited 7/18/17 7:05am]


So that means your critique of the right and Trump will now include the issue of Venezuela?
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #21 posted 07/24/17 4:17am

NorthC

The people protesting aren't "oligarchs" or "capitalists", they're ordinary people who are starving and Maduro is using the army to oppress them. A president who has the army or the Guardia Nacional shoot at his own people is a dictator. No article talking blabla about oligarchs or capitalism is going to change that.
Don't ever lose your dreams.
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Reply #22 posted 07/30/17 2:22am

hausofmoi7

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CIA admitting they are trying to overthrow the Venezuelan government

http://www.independent.co...59771.html
In one of the clearest clues yet about Washington’s latest meddling in the politics of Latin America, CIA director Mike Pompeo said he was “hopeful that there can be a transition in Venezuela and we the CIA is doing its best to understand the dynamic there”.

He added: “I was just down in Mexico City and in Bogota a week before last talking about this very issue, trying to help them understand the things they might do so that they can get a better outcome for their part of the world and our part of the world.”

[Edited 7/30/17 2:45am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #23 posted 07/30/17 2:36am

hausofmoi7

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NorthC said:

The people protesting aren't "oligarchs" or "capitalists", they're ordinary people who are starving and Maduro is using the army to oppress them. A president who has the army or the Guardia Nacional shoot at his own people is a dictator. No article talking blabla about oligarchs or capitalism is going to change that.


Video below mentions that many of the people who were targetted were actually pro government supporters.
Targetted by people within groups that support the opposition.

[Edited 7/30/17 3:21am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #24 posted 07/30/17 6:16am

midnightmover

I can report that the coverage of this issue in UK media is 100% propaganda too. Rebels good, government bad. That's the extent of the analysis. Even more disturbing is that they admit that these rebels want to overthrow the democratically elected government, but there's no suggestion that there could be anything wrong with that.

These people have no interest whatsoever in democracy.

The head of the CIA can only afford to be so blatant about his regime change efforts because he knows there is no objective media to hold him accountable.

“The man who never looks into a newspaper is better informed than he who reads them, inasmuch as he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.”
- Thomas Jefferson
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Reply #25 posted 07/30/17 10:11am

NorthC

But you guys are going to the other extreme. Rebels=CIA/capitalist=bad, Maduro=anti CIA/capitalist=good. There is nothing democratic about Maduro. He wasn't elected, he was appointed by Chavez. And lacking Chavez' charisma and facing an economic crisis, he doesn't know what to do. So he takes the easy way out: blame the US! And some people actually fall for it. Now I know the CIA has a horrible history in Latin America, but the current crisis in Venezuela was created by a man with good ideas and bad economic plans, Hugo Chavez, and a man with no ideas at all, Nicolas Maduro. And who pays the price? Ordinary people.
[Edited 7/30/17 10:15am]
Don't ever lose your dreams.
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Reply #26 posted 08/02/17 5:37am

hausofmoi7

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NorthC said:

But you guys are going to the other extreme. Rebels=CIA/capitalist=bad, Maduro=anti CIA/capitalist=good. There is nothing democratic about Maduro. He wasn't elected, he was appointed by Chavez. And lacking Chavez' charisma and facing an economic crisis, he doesn't know what to do. So he takes the easy way out: blame the US! And some people actually fall for it. Now I know the CIA has a horrible history in Latin America, but the current crisis in Venezuela was created by a man with good ideas and bad economic plans, Hugo Chavez, and a man with no ideas at all, Nicolas Maduro. And who pays the price? Ordinary people.
[Edited 7/30/17 10:15am]

The Venezuelan people voted for this government. Venezuela has the most scrutinized and monitored elections in the world. This coup attempt by the U.S is complete contempt for democracy. Above all, it's an attack on socialism.

This situation is very similar to the the 1953 Iranian coup d'etat by the CIA.
Western imperialist elites are upset that like Iran, Venezuela refuses to privatise thier oil supply.
I just really hope that this coup attempt fails,




.
[Edited 8/2/17 5:46am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #27 posted 08/02/17 5:59am

13cjk13

hausofmoi7 said:

NorthC said:
But you guys are going to the other extreme. Rebels=CIA/capitalist=bad, Maduro=anti CIA/capitalist=good. There is nothing democratic about Maduro. He wasn't elected, he was appointed by Chavez. And lacking Chavez' charisma and facing an economic crisis, he doesn't know what to do. So he takes the easy way out: blame the US! And some people actually fall for it. Now I know the CIA has a horrible history in Latin America, but the current crisis in Venezuela was created by a man with good ideas and bad economic plans, Hugo Chavez, and a man with no ideas at all, Nicolas Maduro. And who pays the price? Ordinary people. [Edited 7/30/17 10:15am]
The Venezuelan people voted for this government. Venezuela has the most scrutinized and monitored elections in the world. This coup attempt by the U.S is complete contempt for democracy. Above all, it's an attack on socialism. This situation is very similar to the the 1953 Iranian coup d'etat by the CIA. Western imperialist elites are upset that like Iran, Venezuela refuses to privatise thier oil supply. I just really hope that this coup attempt fails, . [Edited 8/2/17 5:46am]

Because I am sure that the people of Venezuela that are desperate for food and medication are just ecstatic about Maduro's performance and like most people who respect democracy would love for him to personally re write their constitution.

Matthew 5:38-39
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
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Reply #28 posted 08/02/17 7:31am

hausofmoi7

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13cjk13 said:



hausofmoi7 said:


NorthC said:
But you guys are going to the other extreme. Rebels=CIA/capitalist=bad, Maduro=anti CIA/capitalist=good. There is nothing democratic about Maduro. He wasn't elected, he was appointed by Chavez. And lacking Chavez' charisma and facing an economic crisis, he doesn't know what to do. So he takes the easy way out: blame the US! And some people actually fall for it. Now I know the CIA has a horrible history in Latin America, but the current crisis in Venezuela was created by a man with good ideas and bad economic plans, Hugo Chavez, and a man with no ideas at all, Nicolas Maduro. And who pays the price? Ordinary people. [Edited 7/30/17 10:15am]

The Venezuelan people voted for this government. Venezuela has the most scrutinized and monitored elections in the world. This coup attempt by the U.S is complete contempt for democracy. Above all, it's an attack on socialism. This situation is very similar to the the 1953 Iranian coup d'etat by the CIA. Western imperialist elites are upset that like Iran, Venezuela refuses to privatise thier oil supply. I just really hope that this coup attempt fails, . [Edited 8/2/17 5:46am]

Because I am sure that the people of Venezuela that are desperate for food and medication are just ecstatic about Maduro's performance and like most people who respect democracy would love for him to personally re write their constitution.


The constituent assembly was voted for by the people. The ability to Re write the Constitution is part of their political process.
The right wing opposition are also engineering the scarcity of certain items/products to make life for the people hard to try and turn them against the government.
The price of oil has fallen and is affecting the economy. Venezuela is at least lucky that their oil is not privatised because if it was things would be worse as the people would not be getting as much of the profits from the oil sales as they are now.
You should support more trade with Venezuela, not further sanctions.





.
[Edited 8/2/17 7:44am]
"It means finding the very human narrative of a man navigating between idealism and pragmatism, faith and politics, non-violence, the pitfalls of acclaim as the perils of rejection" – Lesley Hazleton on the first muslim, the prophet.
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Reply #29 posted 08/02/17 9:17am

2freaky4church
1

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The elites are scum.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
"2freaky is very down." 2Elijah.
"2freaky convinced me to join Antifa: OnlyNDA
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Forums > Politics & Religion > "Why can't the U.S left get Venezuela right?" - Venezuela is being hacked.