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Reply #60 posted 07/03/17 4:44pm

IanRG

Dasein said:

Nope! You do not think. You like to think you do, but you don't. The purpose of my beatdown of
your goofy posts in this thread is due to this absolute claim you made as like does not necessarily
equal is:


Pro flag burning and wanting world government is only ever raised on the internet to upset those from the right.


Just beacuse something appears to be related to what could be an analogue doesn't mean the thing
is actually related. In other words, just because 7thday's thread/imagery appears to be related to
devices used intentionally to incite to anger right wingers doesn't mean 7thday was wanting to do
the same: s/he was not trolling us by creating this thread as you claim s/he was! Instead, we dis-
covered that 7thday was wanting to genuinely discuss the existence of a utopian society that has
burned all flags (as a symbolic gesture of eliminating all human made barriers) after the establish-
ment of one global community. And, even if Only's response was related to how you think a right-
winger would respond to being incited to anger via the image of burning one's country's flag, it
still does not follow that 7thday's thread was intentionally created for that purpose. It could be the
case that Only is just as horrible a reader who imports his biases against those ideas which are con-
trary to organized religion as you are.





[Edited 7/3/17 15:01pm]



Do you see how you continue to not discuss what I am saying? Your silly arguments are fooling no one. Only may have been acting exactly as everyone expects a right wing person but for another reason - this is as silly an argument as you have ever made. Black lives matter even if Australian. Loss of identity is a killer for Australians today. This proposal will only repeat these types of disasters. If only 10% don't want to lose their identity, this is 700 million. 700 million is 200 times the number of Indigenous Australians when white man arrived. It is many times the number of slaves stripped of their identity in the US. We see the damage from this today. We need to respect identity, not force people to symbolically burn it away.
[Edited 7/3/17 16:58pm]
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Reply #61 posted 07/04/17 5:21am

Dasein

Sigh . . . this is my last post to you because I know you absolutely need to have the last
word. What I said to E319 on the first page is what I'll say to you in conclusion, as I think
you are not too keen on to what it is I have been arguing:


I'm not arguing against the quixotic nature of the post; I'm arguing against it being con-
sidered "idiotic" and Ian's claim that this "short thread demonstrates that nothing will be gained
from working to get rid nations" as there is nothing in this thread that is a clear and necessary
indication that working to obtain global peace, which I consider to be the OP's intention due to
the context of the Lennon song "Imagine," is futile or an attempt to bait people from the right.


This is my argument; I don't give a fuck about the actual concretization of flag burning as a re-
sult of one unified world and what that would look like for indigenous peoples living in a country
that was taken from them by an oppressor. I'm arguing about something entirely different: you
accused the OP of something (creating a thread just to rile the right) and you accused me of some-
thing: "You only joined the thread to make your anti-Christian point" and your hubris won't allow
you to say: "Sorry. I was wrong." Instead, you're going on and on about some shit I don't care
about.

You gave this thread two "only's" and on each occassion, you put your big foot in your big mouth
because you don't think before you post.

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Reply #62 posted 07/04/17 10:28am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

Facebook is for losers.
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Reply #63 posted 07/04/17 10:33am

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

flags

and

religion

prove

we are retarded and insane.

Facebook is for losers.
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Reply #64 posted 07/04/17 10:59am

13cjk13

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

flags

and

religion

prove

we are retarded and insane.

Sums up the right wing in this country perfectly.

Matthew 5:38-39
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
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Reply #65 posted 07/04/17 11:24am

IanRG

Dasein said:

Sigh . . . this is my last post to you because I know you absolutely need to have the last
word. What I said to E319 on the first page is what I'll say to you in conclusion, as I think
you are not too keen on to what it is I have been arguing:


I'm not arguing against the quixotic nature of the post; I'm arguing against it being con-
sidered "idiotic" and Ian's claim that this "short thread demonstrates that nothing will be gained
from working to get rid nations" as there is nothing in this thread that is a clear and necessary
indication that working to obtain global peace, which I consider to be the OP's intention due to
the context of the Lennon song "Imagine," is futile or an attempt to bait people from the right.


This is my argument; I don't give a fuck about the actual concretization of flag burning as a re-
sult of one unified world and what that would look like for indigenous peoples living in a country
that was taken from them by an oppressor. I'm arguing about something entirely different: you
accused the OP of something (creating a thread just to rile the right) and you accused me of some-
thing: "You only joined the thread to make your anti-Christian point" and your hubris won't allow
you to say: "Sorry. I was wrong." Instead, you're going on and on about some shit I don't care
about.

You gave this thread two "only's" and on each occassion, you put your big foot in your big mouth
because you don't think before you post.

.

Or, in other words, rather than having an intelligent discussion about the proposal and it potentially serious adverse effects, you are only interested in defending yourself and personally attacking those with whom you disagree. I have tried and tried and tried to get you to talk about what 7thday raised but all you are interested is criticising people and not discussing ideas – you only play the person and never the ball.

.

You argue that the provocative statement needs to be considered in context yet you ignore the context of what I said. Taking the first part of my first sentence without the context of the rest of what I said in the first post and never moving from that spot because it does not interest you is why we have not had an intelligent discussion. In context, what I said was:

.

This short thread demonstrates that nothing will be gained from working to get rid nations: You have had the representatives of the left use this to attack the right, the representative of the right to use it to attack a representative of the left, the anti-Christian use it to have a go at religion and then personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with the views of posters. In other words, they all stay in their groups and attack the other and not one of them is doing as representatives of a national group. People group and attack people - they do it based on many things and we won’t stop just because the OP does not like how one group formed and sustains itself

.

I stand by this. The method “chosen” as the first step – the burning of flags is a well-known and deliberate provocation, a bait. I say “chosen” because this is not a serious proposal that anyone expects to be taken up, it is way to get people on a musician’s fan forum to discuss the idea. The provocation worked exactly as expected: Our representative from the right took the bait. How he responded resulted in our representatives of the left and of the anti-religious (because he is anti-Christian) leaping in. My point is that why nothing will be gained is because nationhood is but one cause of why we are not able to live life in peace. We form groups and fight based on so many things, removing just one of these will not stop us from preventing others to live life in peace.

.

Thank you, Dasein. You have ably demonstrated that
- your rejection of my nationhood,

- your rejection of the nationhood of the people of the Cook Islands,

- your total lack of interest in the damage done by the removal nationhood and identity of the Indigenous peoples of Australia, Canada and the USA and of the slaves in the USA, and

- Your inability to realise that groups like Isis actively prevent people from living life in peace because they engage in war with no nation

are positions all taken because it is far more important to you to attack others for reasons other than for what nation they come from shows that I was right – it is impossible to imagine us all living life in peace just because we got rid of our flags and nations. In other words, the proposal will not work because nothing will be gained by getting rid of nations, we will just continue to use all the other ways we currently use to prevent others from living life in peace. (Drops mic and walks away)

[Edited 7/5/17 0:27am]

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Reply #66 posted 07/04/17 11:26am

IanRG

13cjk13 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

flags

and

religion

prove

we are retarded and insane.

Sums up the right wing in this country perfectly.

.

Excellent way of making my point - removing nations will not stop us attacking the other groups we are opposed to.

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Reply #67 posted 07/04/17 12:07pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

IanRG said:

13cjk13 said:

Sums up the right wing in this country perfectly.

.

Excellent way of making my point - removing nations will not stop us attacking the other groups we are opposed to.

If we live, we then have the innate urge to stay alive. We eat other live things to stay alive.

Nothing wrong with it because that is nature. That is what we are a part of. To not want to kill and eat and have more and more is not to be alive.

I'm not saying any of these urges are bad or left or right, or Christian, or Jewish or Islamic of masculine or feminine or inherently black, white, Asian. It's just inherent to life.

Facebook is for losers.
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Reply #68 posted 07/04/17 12:11pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

avatar

...but if you think about it. Deconstruct it. It does seem insane.

Facebook is for losers.
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Reply #69 posted 07/04/17 12:31pm

13cjk13

IanRG said:

13cjk13 said:

Sums up the right wing in this country perfectly.

.

Excellent way of making my point - removing nations will not stop us attacking the other groups we are opposed to.

When the opposing group is as deplorable, as dangerous, as xenophobic, as racist, as sexist, as homophobic as the right wing in this country then I will gladly attack them. Glad I got to help you make your point smile

Matthew 5:38-39
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
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Reply #70 posted 07/04/17 5:58pm

Dasein

13cjk13 said:

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

flags

and

religion

prove

we are retarded and insane.

Sums up the right wing in this country perfectly.


Yes it does!

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Reply #71 posted 07/07/17 3:01pm

7thday

avatar

IanRG said:

7thday said:

I'm the OP, I kind of resent the term "bait" I'm just trying to start an intelligent conversation. It used to be that criticism was seen as healthy, now a person is just called a "hater" for saying anything that is even slightly provoking. This constant demand to "be positive" just isn't real to me. Right now I'm in Canada on July 1, which is our Canada Day and it's a special one because we are 150 years old. But if you talk to the First Nations people, it's really a celebration of 150 years of colonization. The First Nations people brought a large teepee to the Ottawa stage and they were immediately met with opposition from the RCMP. Yes, our proud Mounties really have a long and unfriendly history with the First Nations, which is why I would kind of like us all to dump our flags, the RCMP with the Maple Leaf and the First Nations with the symbol that looks like an infinity. Sorry, I'm not sure what it's called, that's something I should know. An excellent book is Lynda Gray's First Nations 101: Tons of Stuff You Need to Know about Aboriginals. Getting back to John Lennon, he and Yoko sent out a letter once that they were starting a new country called Nutopia, and the anthem was exactly one second of silence. I thought that was beautiful. John was probably as sick as I was of hearing the Star Spangled Banner, O Canada and God Save the Queen. I thought Lou Reed picked up on that nicely with his rocking version of the Star Spangled Banner, called America. It would sure speed up the start of sports games in the USA, maybe even pump up the teams.

I agree with everything you are saying.

.

However, I note that in this you have replaced “burn” with “dump”. I am sure that you understood that requiring people to burn their flags is an emotive and divisive thing. It is not conducive to intelligent discussion – “getting rid of” or “dumping” could be.

.

Think of it this way: One of the most damaging things that have been done to our Indigenous people (Canadian or Australian) is that we sought to remove their identity and demanded that they just be Australians under the Southern Cross or Canadians under the Canadian Composite Shield (the Maple leaf came later). What you are suggesting is expanding this to whole of the world.

You are right, "burn" is too strong a word. Perhaps we could just take down all of the flags of the world and store them in an attic or basement? Put 'em in a flag museum? It just makes me uneasy to see drunk men driving their really loud trucks with a huge Canadian Flag flying from the bed. I think patriotism can boil over into racism, some of the time.

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Reply #72 posted 07/07/17 6:01pm

IanRG

7thday said:

IanRG said:

I agree with everything you are saying.

.

However, I note that in this you have replaced “burn” with “dump”. I am sure that you understood that requiring people to burn their flags is an emotive and divisive thing. It is not conducive to intelligent discussion – “getting rid of” or “dumping” could be.

.

Think of it this way: One of the most damaging things that have been done to our Indigenous people (Canadian or Australian) is that we sought to remove their identity and demanded that they just be Australians under the Southern Cross or Canadians under the Canadian Composite Shield (the Maple leaf came later). What you are suggesting is expanding this to whole of the world.

You are right, "burn" is too strong a word. Perhaps we could just take down all of the flags of the world and store them in an attic or basement? Put 'em in a flag museum? It just makes me uneasy to see drunk men driving their really loud trucks with a huge Canadian Flag flying from the bed. I think patriotism can boil over into racism, some of the time.

.

We have similar problems in Australia with bogans (i.e. Aussie red necks). The way I see it is there is nothing wrong with the flag or any other symbols used by groups, so long as they are used positively whilst respecting the rights of other people to use their symbols positively as well.

.

We are all citizens of the world but we are also from our own street, own province/state/county etc., own country, own racial heritage, own political preferences, sporting club, car/phone/clothes etc. choices, style of music, follower of an artist etc., etc., etc. It is how we respect the difference in others that we can actualise letting people living life in peace.

.

The issue is the rise in the right side of politics of Nationalism as opposed to traditional Conservatism, not the symbols they latch on to. The reasons for this change are complex but it comes, at least in part, from how the internationalisation of politics, economics, social media etc. has left some behind or feeling threatened. It is those who felt left out by the political machines (left and right) that lead to the tea party, Trump, Sanders, Brexit, even Macron as he is not from the French mainstream parties. The best response to how some of these have latched on to flags and Nationalism cannot be to take away their symbols. This will only confirm that they are being excluded.

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Reply #73 posted 07/08/17 6:36am

Dasein

IanRG said:

7thday said:

You are right, "burn" is too strong a word. Perhaps we could just take down all of the flags of the world and store them in an attic or basement? Put 'em in a flag museum? It just makes me uneasy to see drunk men driving their really loud trucks with a huge Canadian Flag flying from the bed. I think patriotism can boil over into racism, some of the time.

.

We have similar problems in Australia with bogans (i.e. Aussie red necks). The way I see it is there is nothing wrong with the flag or any other symbols used by groups, so long as they are used positively whilst respecting the rights of other people to use their symbols positively as well.



Race is John Eligon's beat. He roams America reporting for the New York Times on the tensions,
eruptions and occasional triumphs in race relations.

What might he make of race relations in Australia?

Foreign Correspondent and the New York Times decided to find out by sending Eligon on a journey
across Australia.





[Edited 7/8/17 6:37am]

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Reply #74 posted 07/08/17 6:51am

poppys

IanRG said:

7thday said:

You are right, "burn" is too strong a word. Perhaps we could just take down all of the flags of the world and store them in an attic or basement? Put 'em in a flag museum? It just makes me uneasy to see drunk men driving their really loud trucks with a huge Canadian Flag flying from the bed. I think patriotism can boil over into racism, some of the time.

.

We have similar problems in Australia with bogans (i.e. Aussie red necks). The way I see it is there is nothing wrong with the flag or any other symbols used by groups, so long as they are used positively whilst respecting the rights of other people to use their symbols positively as well.

The meaning of flags can bleed into events. For instance, the Confederate flag in the US.

Interesting thread, 7thday. In my lifetime (60 years), the world has gone from 3 billion people to over 7 billion people. Global thinking is the future, no doubt.

Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #75 posted 07/08/17 5:28pm

IanRG

Dasein said:

IanRG said:

.

We have similar problems in Australia with bogans (i.e. Aussie red necks). The way I see it is there is nothing wrong with the flag or any other symbols used by groups, so long as they are used positively whilst respecting the rights of other people to use their symbols positively as well.



Race is John Eligon's beat. He roams America reporting for the New York Times on the tensions,
eruptions and occasional triumphs in race relations.

What might he make of race relations in Australia?

Foreign Correspondent and the New York Times decided to find out by sending Eligon on a journey
across Australia.


.

It is good that you finally want to discuss what I said.

.

I encourage people to read this link - especially the link to the stories from the Indigenous Australians, themselves. It shows the serious impact of forcing a denial of identity on a group of people. Their recovery is almost exclusively by finding their separate identity within this country - refinding their pride, their culture, their art and their place. It is the opposite of what the OP is seeking - we should not burn away or even put away our identities (as symbolised by our flags etc.) to live in peace with each other. We need to join together in ways that embrace, celebrate and encourage all our differences positively. What has happened to the Indigenous Australians, Canadians, "United States-ians" (you are not Americans, this describes the peoples from two continents) and to the slaves must not be repeated.

.

The process of stripping identity in Australia included a practice of removing children with mixed parentage. This wrong and destructive act was done for misguided altruistic reasons - a belief that if they were brought up as non-Indigenous Australians then they would be better off. This equates to the proposal here - The good intention is us all living together in peace as citizens of the world - the poorly thought out consequence is the destuction of the individual identities where the poor, powerless and less populous lose their place in the world just because the rich. powerful and populous cannot stop fighting each other.

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Reply #76 posted 07/08/17 5:33pm

IanRG

poppys said:

IanRG said:

.

We have similar problems in Australia with bogans (i.e. Aussie red necks). The way I see it is there is nothing wrong with the flag or any other symbols used by groups, so long as they are used positively whilst respecting the rights of other people to use their symbols positively as well.

The meaning of flags can bleed into events. For instance, the Confederate flag in the US.

Interesting thread, 7thday. In my lifetime (60 years), the world has gone from 3 billion people to over 7 billion people. Global thinking is the future, no doubt.

.

Obviously, there are flags and symbols that are now too tainted by their history to continue to be reasonably used. And every country has its darkness. This is more a question of which flag/symbol can bring people together positively rather than rejecting all flags/symbols.

.

Global thinking is essential but in a way that brings us all together without stripping from us what makes us individually great.

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Reply #77 posted 07/08/17 6:28pm

poppys

Population conditions will dictate how humans proceed barring unseen disasters. We can always try to keep identities that are important to us. Even within one persons life, our own autonomy over ourself changes several times.

People can make connections regardless of symbols, such as a flag. There is more than one way to belong somewhere. Wherever it is. One thing is for true. We are together on this single planet and our numbers are exploding.


Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #78 posted 07/08/17 7:05pm

IanRG

poppys said:

Population conditions will dictate how humans proceed barring unseen disasters. We can always try to keep identities that are important to us. Even within one persons life, our own autonomy over ourself changes several times.

People can make connections regardless of symbols, such as a flag. There is more than one way to belong somewhere. Wherever it is. One thing is for true. We are together on this single planet and our numbers are exploding.


.

I don't disagree with any of this but so?

.

None of this justifies the rich, powerful and populous removing the identities of the poor, powerless or few. The 21,000 people on the Cook Islands are not the cause of wars, are not the people who don't let others live life in peace and would disappear in the rounding when calculating world over-population. Yet if the majority of the rich, powerful and populous all agree to this proposal, then the people of the Cook islands will be required by those who caused the wars, don't let others live life in peace and are over populating the world to suffer because of this. The people of the Cook Islands will suffer more from losing their identity as separate from New Zealand, from Oceania, from the Pacific Islands than the people of US, China and Europe will suffer. Recognising that we all need to understand our place and impact on the world should never mean we must force others to lose themselves just because we are stuffing up. Did you read the links above on the impact of loss of identity?

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Reply #79 posted 07/08/17 7:43pm

poppys

Not here to argue. Not justifying anything. I am looking at the big picture. Identities have been lost and found on this planet forever. Change is life. Have a nice evening.

Kick the old-school joints. For the true funk soldiers.
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Reply #80 posted 07/08/17 8:21pm

IanRG

poppys said:

Not here to argue. Not justifying anything. I am looking at the big picture. Identities have been lost and found on this planet forever. Change is life. Have a nice evening.

.

I am also looking at the big picture. The impacts of when the rich, powerful and populous remove the identities of the poor, powerless and fewer are not able to be ignored because it has been ignored before. Yes, change is life but we should seek to make the change positive without repeating what was done to the Indigenous Australians, Canadians and United Statians or to the slaves.

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