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Thread started 06/16/17 5:22pm

SeventeenDayze

Why are people so uncomfortable talking about race?

Someone I know who happens to be white seems to have a strong hatred for Civil Rights activists and dismisses issues that revolve around racism. I even shared PERSONAL experiences that have happened to me from the time I was a kid until the present day but they act like it's not real. Why are some people so uncomfortable admitting that race is still a huge problem in this country??

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Reply #1 posted 06/16/17 5:25pm

LBrent

SeventeenDayze said:

Someone I know who happens to be white seems to have a strong hatred for Civil Rights activists and dismisses issues that revolve around racism. I even shared PERSONAL experiences that have happened to me from the time I was a kid until the present day but they act like it's not real. Why are some people so uncomfortable admitting that race is still a huge problem in this country??

Because admitting there's a problem means that suddenly they have to choose...They have to choose to be either a part of the problem...or they have to choose to help solve the problem...

Entitlement makes them want to ignore the problem so they never have to choose.

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Reply #2 posted 06/16/17 5:29pm

toejam

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Obviously this doesn't apply to every situation, but I notice that some people are hesitant to express their views due to a fear of being painted as a 'racist'. No matter what solution is proposed, some will be offended and paint as 'racism'. So some people just avoid talking about it.
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Reply #3 posted 06/16/17 5:43pm

2elijah

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It's a reality many are afraid to discuss, because for some it makes their conscience uncomfortable, and often times, those who are uncomfortable about the topic, tend to go into attack mode, and assume others are trying to impose some form of guilt on them, when that's not even the case.

Nothing wrong with people sharing their experiences with others about it or exposing any racial injustices, that take place within our society. Remaining silent about the matter is just as dangerous as supporting racism, but it's not an easy topic for some to handle here.
[Edited 6/16/17 17:45pm]
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Reply #4 posted 06/16/17 5:59pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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Most can not accept ownership of their own issues. Also some people assume agendas or motive.
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Reply #5 posted 06/16/17 6:11pm

jjhunsecker

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Because many White people dont want to acknowledge the privilege of being White, so when something happens to a non-White person, especially if it involves law enforcement, it's easier to believe that the non-White person must have done something to deserve how they were treated
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Reply #6 posted 06/16/17 6:17pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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jjhunsecker said:

Because many White people dont want to acknowledge the privilege of being White, so when something happens to a non-White person, especially if it involves law enforcement, it's easier to believe that the non-White person must have done something to deserve how they were treated

because they can not see it. and it often comes across as being their fault.

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Reply #7 posted 06/16/17 6:26pm

jjhunsecker

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OnlyNDaUsa said:



jjhunsecker said:


Because many White people dont want to acknowledge the privilege of being White, so when something happens to a non-White person, especially if it involves law enforcement, it's easier to believe that the non-White person must have done something to deserve how they were treated


because they can not see it. and it often comes across as being their fault.


Because they themselves have never experienced these things. They don't know what it's like to be stopped and frisked, or pulled over for no reason. Or to be followed around a store when you are just shopping. So since it never happened to THEM, or the folks in their circles, when others talk about such experiences, it's assumed by some that those these things have happened to MUST either have done something wrong, or just imagined it
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Reply #8 posted 06/16/17 6:56pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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jjhunsecker said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

because they can not see it. and it often comes across as being their fault.

Because they themselves have never experienced these things. They don't know what it's like to be stopped and frisked, or pulled over for no reason. Or to be followed around a store when you are just shopping. So since it never happened to THEM, or the folks in their circles, when others talk about such experiences, it's assumed by some that those these things have happened to MUST either have done something wrong, or just imagined it

which is why many people when told they are privileged they get defensive. Just like if I say you are privileged because you were born in a developed country you may not agree. Even if I take a trip and spend a year somewhere I know I can always come back.

I can say I have been treated poorly by black people... and it feels bad... I have been discriminated against and that feels bad. But I also understand that is limited and I can leave. I can never understand what it is like to live like that every day of my life. It is always temporary.


But many that deny white privilege are not to blame as they can not ever know what it is like to not have that privlage so they can not even see it. So when that is put out there (and I agree it is real) people take it personally. They will often speak of personal issues they have had or will mention that they've been discriminated against but unless they give it some thought they may not be able to make the connection.

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Reply #9 posted 06/16/17 7:31pm

UncleJam

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SeventeenDayze said:

Someone I know who happens to be white seems to have a strong hatred for Civil Rights activists and dismisses issues that revolve around racism. I even shared PERSONAL experiences that have happened to me from the time I was a kid until the present day but they act like it's not real. Why are some people so uncomfortable admitting that race is still a huge problem in this country??

I'm assuming that most of those uncomfortable folks are of the Caucasian persuasion? biggrin Happens to me too...we make the mistake of trying to help them understand, but most never will. Why? I dont really know, but its frustrating as fuck! One of my best friends is a white guy, he's a police officer...I'm sure you can imagine some of the converations we've had...he gets some of what I explain, but sometimes it's like talking to a brick wall. I'm sure he feels the same about me, but there are many times where I let him know that I agree with him...very few times has he agreed with or understood me. Oh well...that's my boy, he's family and I love him, but they just can't see it. According to my father, it's because of two things: FEAR and GUILT.

Make it so, Number One...
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Reply #10 posted 06/16/17 8:13pm

LBrent

UncleJam said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Someone I know who happens to be white seems to have a strong hatred for Civil Rights activists and dismisses issues that revolve around racism. I even shared PERSONAL experiences that have happened to me from the time I was a kid until the present day but they act like it's not real. Why are some people so uncomfortable admitting that race is still a huge problem in this country??

I'm assuming that most of those uncomfortable folks are of the Caucasian persuasion? biggrin Happens to me too...we make the mistake of trying to help them understand, but most never will. Why? I dont really know, but its frustrating as fuck! One of my best friends is a white guy, he's a police officer...I'm sure you can imagine some of the converations we've had...he gets some of what I explain, but sometimes it's like talking to a brick wall. I'm sure he feels the same about me, but there are many times where I let him know that I agree with him...very few times has he agreed with or understood me. Oh well...that's my boy, he's family and I love him, but they just can't see it. According to my father, it's because of two things: FEAR and GUILT.

I think that inside they understand more than they acknowledge outside...and I think it's because when folks acknowledge the experience of "the other" it makes them feel their own fears of vulnerability and that if there is a "the other" for them, then they are "the other" for someone else.

The thought that they could be that vulnerable is too real for them so they ignore the concept of "the other" even existing at all.

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Reply #11 posted 06/16/17 9:02pm

Dasein

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Most can not accept ownership of their own issues. Also some people assume agendas or motive.


Who are you referring to when you speak of "most" not being able to "accept ownership of their
own issues": the people historically at the receiving end of racism in the USA/world (brown skinned
people) or those dishing out the racism (colonizing straight white dudes)?

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Reply #12 posted 06/16/17 9:06pm

Dasein

toejam said:

Obviously this doesn't apply to every situation, but I notice that some people are hesitant to express their views due to a fear of being painted as a 'racist'. No matter what solution is proposed, some will be offended and paint as 'racism'. So some people just avoid talking about it.


Kinda like the maxim: "Better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all
doubt"? I'm most certain that there are some who are afraid to be called a racist because they
don't want to deal with the guilt of actually being a racist. Besides, whatever you *are*, it will
most certainly be expressed concretely, so those who avoid talking about racism or why they
are uncomfortable talking about race will inexorably perform an act that is reflective of their
ideology.

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Reply #13 posted 06/17/17 12:05am

PeteSilas

SeventeenDayze said:

Someone I know who happens to be white seems to have a strong hatred for Civil Rights activists and dismisses issues that revolve around racism. I even shared PERSONAL experiences that have happened to me from the time I was a kid until the present day but they act like it's not real. Why are some people so uncomfortable admitting that race is still a huge problem in this country??

i always think of it in terms of an alcoholic, the alcoholic doesn't admit a problem and deflects when you try to get him to look at it. It's called denial. What's worse though, is some of these fuckers are in position where they can fuck up lives. I knew a teacher who claimed black people weren't discriminated against and in the next breath referred to one of his students as a N. How can you get someone like that to change? How do the innocents ones who deserve a chance before an asshole like that gets ahold of him, avoid the problem? I don't know. It's very troubling, but it's the way of the world, seems like someone is trying to stamp and shape you into their own image before you even start.

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Reply #14 posted 06/17/17 12:12am

PeteSilas

Dasein said:

toejam said:

Obviously this doesn't apply to every situation, but I notice that some people are hesitant to express their views due to a fear of being painted as a 'racist'. No matter what solution is proposed, some will be offended and paint as 'racism'. So some people just avoid talking about it.


Kinda like the maxim: "Better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all
doubt"? I'm most certain that there are some who are afraid to be called a racist because they
don't want to deal with the guilt of actually being a racist. Besides, whatever you *are*, it will
most certainly be expressed concretely, so those who avoid talking about racism or why they
are uncomfortable talking about race will inexorably perform an act that is reflective of their
ideology.

the word racism is ridiculously applied these days too. the best way to deal with the white man is to avoid him as much as possible, hard because he has a god complex and takes it quite personal when you ignore him. A bigger problem in my opinion is how they have gotten us (i'm Indian) all fucked up so that we can't work together so it's either try to make an unworkable situation work or to work alone. I work alone, I keep my distance with everyone because whether i like it or not, as much as people talk about white people, they want to be just like him. I also learned the hard way not to get too close to white people, they are a sick bunch of people, needing to condemn and judge everyone else so they don't have to face their own problems. Us minorities can no longer claim any moral highground though, we've sold out the best of ourselves in pursuit of things the white man has told us to want.

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Reply #15 posted 06/17/17 12:46am

SeventeenDayze

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Most can not accept ownership of their own issues. Also some people assume agendas or motive.

So when you say "most" you really mean blacks right?

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Reply #16 posted 06/17/17 12:48am

SeventeenDayze

2elijah said:

It's a reality many are afraid to discuss, because for some it makes their conscience uncomfortable, and often times, those who are uncomfortable about the topic, tend to go into attack mode, and assume others are trying to impose some form of guilt on them, when that's not even the case. Nothing wrong with people sharing their experiences with others about it or exposing any racial injustices, that take place within our society. Remaining silent about the matter is just as dangerous as supporting racism, but it's not an easy topic for some to handle here. [Edited 6/16/17 17:45pm]

Yeah I think some people equate being tone deaf as being not racist because they see racism only through prism of extremes (cross burnings, lynchings, etc.) But, they DON'T admit to so-called microaggressions and passive aggressive behavior designed to undermine blacks and keep us in a second class citizen position.

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Reply #17 posted 06/17/17 3:23am

2elijah

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jjhunsecker said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:



jjhunsecker said:


Because many White people dont want to acknowledge the privilege of being White, so when something happens to a non-White person, especially if it involves law enforcement, it's easier to believe that the non-White person must have done something to deserve how they were treated


because they can not see it. and it often comes across as being their fault.


Because they themselves have never experienced these things. They don't know what it's like to be stopped and frisked, or pulled over for no reason. Or to be followed around a store when you are just shopping. So since it never happened to THEM, or the folks in their circles, when others talk about such experiences, it's assumed by some that those these things have happened to MUST either have done something wrong, or just imagined it

Exactly. With most police shootings of unarmed Black males, 99% the cop never gets convicted. The juries mostly side with the cops, especially if the cops are white.

Let's not forget that if you're Black and discuss race in this forum, you are often stalked, verbally attacked, insulted, slandered, etc., by some orgers, who get mad if you expose any truths about racism in America, regardless if it's barbaric acts of the past or present.
[Edited 6/17/17 4:09am]
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Reply #18 posted 06/17/17 3:49am

2elijah

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OnlyNDaUsa said:

Most can not accept ownership of their own issues. Also some people assume agendas or motive.

Ownership of their issues?


1) You mean those who live in complete denial that we live in a society built on racism and still dependent on various forms of societal slavery? A system whereby many people of color, in this country are the targets of that system?


2)You mean those who 'turn the other cheek' that there is a cycle of unarmed Blacks still being murdered by racist or badly, trained cops, where cops that kill them never get convicted for killing Blacks? Also this happens to other people of color, Native Americans and Hispanics as well.


3)You mean those who ignore the fact that Blacks are still being racially profiled while innocently shopping, driving, walking down the street?


4)Are those, (many people of color), who are still targets of racial prejudice suppose to just remain silent about it? Is that your solution in handling that kind of prejudice?

5)Is it not questionable to you, that when some cops approach Blacks committing a crime, they 'immediately' shoot to kill Blacks, whether armed or unarmed, but will take the time to preserve the lives of many white criminals committing the same criminal activity?

6)Should Americans keep pretending white privilege doesn't exist and not mention/speak about it, simply to not hurt the feelings of whites, who benefit from that privilege, some subconsciously and others fully aware of that privilege?

Silence is not the solution in eradicating racism. Please try and remember that.

Let's go back for a min. The system of racism, designed for America, was to preserve white power and white privilege, and by that system, (fake) white supremacy ideology was born, which helped to maintain racial division. Then came the birth of institutional racism. All which still exists in America today. The way to eradicate that system, is to eradicate the lies of white supremacy ideology.

Eradicating white supremacy ideology, is the responsibility of the white community, because that ideology is deep within the roots of their communities, and it was their early, American ancestors who were responsible for designing those types of racist and dividing systems in America, in order to maintain power and control.
[Edited 6/17/17 4:28am]
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Reply #19 posted 06/17/17 4:05am

2elijah

avatar

UncleJam said:



SeventeenDayze said:


Someone I know who happens to be white seems to have a strong hatred for Civil Rights activists and dismisses issues that revolve around racism. I even shared PERSONAL experiences that have happened to me from the time I was a kid until the present day but they act like it's not real. Why are some people so uncomfortable admitting that race is still a huge problem in this country??



I'm assuming that most of those uncomfortable folks are of the Caucasian persuasion? biggrin Happens to me too...we make the mistake of trying to help them understand, but most never will. Why? I dont really know, but its frustrating as fuck! One of my best friends is a white guy, he's a police officer...I'm sure you can imagine some of the converations we've had...he gets some of what I explain, but sometimes it's like talking to a brick wall. I'm sure he feels the same about me, but there are many times where I let him know that I agree with him...very few times has he agreed with or understood me. Oh well...that's my boy, he's family and I love him, but they just can't see it. According to my father, it's because of two things: FEAR and GUILT.


That's the thing though, should Americans remain silent about racial prejudice because of others' self-imposed guilt and fear in discussing that topic? That would be like condoning racism, giving it a pass.
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Reply #20 posted 06/17/17 5:15am

toejam

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2elijah said:

With most police shootings of unarmed Black males, 99% the cop never gets convicted.


Is that an actual stat, or just off the top of your head? Do you happen to know what % of cops get convicted after shooting unarmed non-black males? I suspect juries would overwhelmingly favor cops in most lawsuits against them. I imagine if there's any significant discrepancy it would mostly be the result of unfortunate economic realities than 'racism' - i.e. certain communities being more able than others to afford lawyers etc.
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Reply #21 posted 06/17/17 5:24am

toejam

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2elijah said:

The way to eradicate that system, is to eradicate the lies of white supremacy ideology.


I think the OVERWHELMING majority of white Americans don't believe in 'white supremacy'. They might have a different take on how to solve race issues, but different, even mistaken, opinions should not be mistaken as some subconscious race superiority complex ... I suspect the percentage of blacks who think their race is the superior one would be roughly equivalent to white supremacists... But both would not be representative of their race as a whole.

.
[Edited 6/17/17 5:25am]
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Reply #22 posted 06/17/17 5:32am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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Many people are awake to racial divisionist part of the psyche warfare from government. Government Propagandists that fuel racism and keep people fighting while they control the masses. People are awake and majority of people do not want racism. They understand divide and conquer strategies on some level. Unfortunately some people don't want to know about real issues of abortion being as high as 50% in some black communities and they don't understand that the top 1% that want abortion it is part of a program. They don't want to talk or think about how Hollywood controls peoples minds with hip-hop culture or stupidity in films. They don't want to know about pesticide tests on 2 year old black babies until they die. No you need all this race baiting and in fighting and creating paranoia. They don't want to understand how the media is out to control minds.

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Reply #23 posted 06/17/17 5:32am

OnlyNDaUsa

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SeventeenDayze said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Most can not accept ownership of their own issues. Also some people assume agendas or motive.

So when you say "most" you really mean blacks right?

Most people. Most of any "race." And by issues, many white people do not see their privilege. One reason talking about this issue is how fast some are to jump to conclusions and blame others for something they had no hand in creating.

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Reply #24 posted 06/17/17 5:38am

SuperFurryAnim
al

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toejam said:

2elijah said:
The way to eradicate that system, is to eradicate the lies of white supremacy ideology.
I think the OVERWHELMING majority of white Americans don't believe in 'white supremacy'. They might have a different take on how to solve race issues, but different, even mistaken, opinions should not be mistaken as some subconscious race superiority complex ... I suspect the percentage of blacks who think their race is the superior one would be roughly equivalent to white supremacists... But both would not be representative of their race as a whole. . [Edited 6/17/17 5:25am]

Racial division is funded in America to divide and conquer the masses.

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Reply #25 posted 06/17/17 5:44am

Dasein

toejam said:

2elijah said:
With most police shootings of unarmed Black males, 99% the cop never gets convicted.
Is that an actual stat, or just off the top of your head? Do you happen to know what % of cops get convicted after shooting unarmed non-black males? I suspect juries would overwhelmingly favor cops in most lawsuits against them. I imagine if there's any significant discrepancy it would mostly be the result of unfortunate economic realities than 'racism' - i.e. certain communities being more able than others to afford lawyers etc.


I don't know of any police officer who has used lethal force in a case involving a Black American
suspect in which race was considered a factor who has been convicted recently.

In the US, cops are rarely convicted in cases having to deal with their use of lethal force because
the US legal system doesn't want to second guess police work; DA's are not going to tear down the
walls of Jericho to convict a police officer; and police officers are probably a bit reluctant to aid in
the policing of one of their own - not because of any "unfortunate economic realities" as you suggest.
Besides, in the US, economic realities are often influenced and framed and formed by racism anyways.
Here, if you are presented a case where a member of a minority group appears to have been treated
unfairly, ethically and practically-speaking, you must pull out your racist lens so as to view the par-

ticulars as US racism is so embedded all social systems/structures.

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Reply #26 posted 06/17/17 5:44am

Guitarhero

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toejam said:

2elijah said:
The way to eradicate that system, is to eradicate the lies of white supremacy ideology.
I think the OVERWHELMING majority of white Americans don't believe in 'white supremacy'. They might have a different take on how to solve race issues, but different, even mistaken, opinions should not be mistaken as some subconscious race superiority complex ... I suspect the percentage of blacks who think their race is the superior one would be roughly equivalent to white supremacists... But both would not be representative of their race as a whole. . [Edited 6/17/17 5:25am]

Looking throught some of these threads on P&R some people put all none whites in a particular box and all whites in a particular box. Just blatent bigotry from all sides it seems. confused Can we start to get back to treating all people on the same level and with respect for each other instead of throwing certain groups under the bus as a whole. I will not repeat some of things i have seen written in the P&R sections that is still here to read. sad

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Reply #27 posted 06/17/17 5:45am

2elijah

avatar

toejam said:

2elijah said:

The way to eradicate that system, is to eradicate the lies of white supremacy ideology.


I think the OVERWHELMING majority of white Americans don't believe in 'white supremacy'. They might have a different take on how to solve race issues, but different, even mistaken, opinions should not be mistaken as some subconscious race superiority complex ... I suspect the percentage of blacks who think their race is the superior one would be roughly equivalent to white supremacists... But both would not be representative of their race as a whole.

.
[Edited 6/17/17 5:25am]

I didn't say 'all' whites believed in it or are conscious of it. The point is, that is an ideology, that exists within the American, white community for generations. I am specifically talking about in America. It certainly isn't a lie. Did you miss the white nationalists that came out during the last American presidential election? That's the ideology they believe in and promote. These are the ugly truths many just do not want to accept. Should we just pretend racism never and doesn't exist in America, just to not make people uncomfortable about that reality? What crime is being committed in discussing it.
I guess Seventeendaze is right.
[Edited 6/17/17 5:52am]
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Reply #28 posted 06/17/17 5:52am

OnlyNDaUsa

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2elijah said:

Ownership of their issues?


1) You mean those who live in complete denial that we live in a society built on racism and still dependent on various forms of societal slavery? A system whereby many people of color, in this country are the targets of that system?


2)You mean those who 'turn the other cheek' that there is a cycle of unarmed Blacks still being murdered by racist or badly, trained cops, where cops that kill them never get convicted for killing Blacks? Also this happens to other people of color, Native Americans and Hispanics as well.


3)You mean those who ignore the fact that Blacks are still being racially profiled while innocently shopping, driving, walking down the street?


4)Are those, (many people of color), who are still targets of racial prejudice suppose to just remain silent about it? Is that your solution in handling that kind of prejudice?

5)Is it not questionable to you, that when some cops approach Blacks committing a crime, they 'immediately' shoot to kill Blacks, whether armed or unarmed, but will take the time to preserve the lives of many white criminals committing the same criminal activity?

6)Should Americans keep pretending white privilege doesn't exist and not mention/speak about it, simply to not hurt the feelings of whites, who benefit from that privilege, some subconsciously and others fully aware of that privilege?

Silence is not the solution in eradicating racism. Please try and remember that.

Let's go back for a min. The system of racism, designed for America, was to preserve white power and white privilege, and by that system, (fake) white supremacy ideology was born, which helped to maintain racial division. Then came the birth of institutional racism. All which still exists in America today. The way to eradicate that system, is to eradicate the lies of white supremacy ideology.

Eradicating white supremacy ideology, is the responsibility of the white community, because that ideology is deep within the roots of their communities, and it was their early, American ancestors who were responsible for designing those types of racist and dividing systems in America, in order to maintain power and control.

1) It is part denial part blindness. White privilege is something that is hard to see from this side. When someone it told they have "white" (or First World) Privilege they often bring up their own struggles and hardships as if that was proof that there was no such privilege.


2) yes that is a big issue and I have said in most of the cases the cop was wrong.

3) Yeah. People that do that think it is justified and can not see that it isn't


4) no and no

5) I am not sure what you mean to ask. But that would seem to fall under 2. I agree too many cops are too quick to use deadly force and it is sure hard to argue that most cases are not an unarmed black male.

6) no I think it needs to be talked about. I just said for most people if you tell them they are privileged they will not see it.


As to white people need to fix it? I am not sure that is reasonable. Is it the fault of current people what their ancestors did? We agree there is a history of systematic and industrialized racism that has over many generations caused major problems that are deeply entrenched in many aspects of life. If you say "white people broke it they have to fix it" it will never get fixed.

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #29 posted 06/17/17 5:58am

Dasein

PeteSilas said:

Dasein said:


Kinda like the maxim: "Better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all
doubt"? I'm most certain that there are some who are afraid to be called a racist because they
don't want to deal with the guilt of actually being a racist. Besides, whatever you *are*, it will
most certainly be expressed concretely, so those who avoid talking about racism or why they
are uncomfortable talking about race will inexorably perform an act that is reflective of their
ideology.

the word racism is ridiculously applied these days too. the best way to deal with the white man is to avoid him as much as possible, hard because he has a god complex and takes it quite personal when you ignore him. A bigger problem in my opinion is how they have gotten us (i'm Indian) all fucked up so that we can't work together so it's either try to make an unworkable situation work or to work alone. I work alone, I keep my distance with everyone because whether i like it or not, as much as people talk about white people, they want to be just like him. I also learned the hard way not to get too close to white people, they are a sick bunch of people, needing to condemn and judge everyone else so they don't have to face their own problems. Us minorities can no longer claim any moral highground though, we've sold out the best of ourselves in pursuit of things the white man has told us to want.


I do think white men are afflicted with a social disease - industrial capitalism - which has had an
adverse impact on their intercultural interactions. For years, I thought the solution to the racial
problem in the US was by inverting Christianity so that minorities, subjugated by Christians, could
use those very same tenets to reveal this social disease (as most white men who founded this
country and continue its pernicious traditions of oppression and marginalization were religious),
and then offer a salve for healing. As it turns out, there is a god higher than Jehovah for many of
these white dudes, and that god is Mammon.

The Civil Rights movement, which was exactly this practice of subverting this social disease by
inverting Christianity, didn't work because white dudes fear Mammon more than they fear Jesus
Christ. I guess this means minorities have to use economical means to get these white dudes to
realize they are the scourge of the Earth? . . .

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