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Thread started 06/11/17 3:31pm

TrivialPursuit

Puerto Rico - the debate

Just your quick thoughts on the territory of the U.S:

Half of P.R. residents have moved to the U.S. in the last decade alone because of poverty. Should P.R. be the 51st state? As of now, they don't pay federal taxes, get to vote, & receive significantly less funding than one of the existing 50.

Would becoming the 51st state be hurtful to P.R. or better for the country overall? Is there a fear of P.R. losing their culture and individuality and being gentrified to all fuck, or could P.R. keep that alive and well?


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Reply #1 posted 06/11/17 5:17pm

2elijah

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TrivialPursuit said:

Just your quick thoughts on the territory of the U.S:

Half of P.R. residents have moved to the U.S. in the last decade alone because of poverty. Should P.R. be the 51st state? As of now, they don't pay federal taxes, get to vote, & receive significantly less funding than one of the existing 50.

Would becoming the 51st state be hurtful to P.R. or better for the country overall? Is there a fear of P.R. losing their culture and individuality and being gentrified to all fuck, or could P.R. keep that alive and well?




That's a tough one, but I your 3rd paragraph does draw some concerns, about possibly losing its culture and individuality.
[Edited 6/11/17 17:18pm]
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Reply #2 posted 06/11/17 5:19pm

purplepoppy

Yes it is an interesting debate. Complicated too. I lived in the USVI (St Croix, 70 miles from Puerto Rico) for close to a decade. It has the same set up, a territory with limited rights including not being able to vote for President. Taxes are paid, but they are paid to the territory. Welfare is the same so there's that. The Caribbean has a huge underclass of people who are disenfranchised from jobs and decent schools. Almost of the people who do get a good private education leave the island ASAP with the help and blessings of their families - there is nothing to stay for, no opportunity. That kind of brain drain defeats growth.

Puerto Rico has been a bedroom community of NYC for a long time now. As far as losing their culture, I don't think that will happen suddenly. They have the benefit of speaking (very rapid) Spanish as well. The main problem is no jobs and crime, sound familiar?

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Reply #3 posted 06/12/17 5:00am

2elijah

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purplepoppy said:

Yes it is an interesting debate. Complicated too. I lived in the USVI (St Croix, 70 miles from Puerto Rico) for close to a decade. It has the same set up, a territory with limited rights including not being able to vote for President. Taxes are paid, but they are paid to the territory. Welfare is the same so there's that. The Caribbean has a huge underclass of people who are disenfranchised from jobs and decent schools. Almost of the people who do get a good private education leave the island ASAP with the help and blessings of their families - there is nothing to stay for, no opportunity. That kind of brain drain defeats growth.

Puerto Rico has been a bedroom community of NYC for a long time now. As far as losing their culture, I don't think that will happen suddenly. They have the benefit of speaking (very rapid) Spanish as well. The main problem is no jobs and crime, sound familiar?




Since you mentioned the USVI, my parents are from the St. Thomas, USVI and 4 of my siblings, and maternal grandmother from Tortola, in the BVI. ST. Thomas, USVI is not the same now, when they were growing up there. Four of my siblings did well there, and do did some of my cousins, nieces and nephews. Some still there. My oldest brother was a teacher there, but retired and lived in the states now. Most people there work in government jobs. There are white West Indians there, by culture, who are descendants of early European families where many follow the West Indian culture, as well as their own ancestry/ethnicity, French/Dutch, etc. That's a group that you usually hear no one talking about, White West Indians, who exists, and speak with a West Indian accent. I've only met two White West Indians living in the states.


In my parents and siblings days, the Puerto Rican/Dominican culture was an influence there. They grew up listening more to Latin and Calypso music. That's the that was played in our household, and I have quite a few Black Puerto Rican cousins, as well as, a niece and nephew.

Many West Indians had to find work in Puerto Rico, Tortola, (including my mom and her cousin, and they lived in Puerto Rico for about a year, when she was a in her late teens, then moved back to the VI), and other neighboring islands. Now a lot of Jamaicans moved in and bought some land, in the late 80s to 90s, and reggae music has basically taken over, and the culture changed there. My aunt (deceased), and my sister still have homes there. All my siblings are now living in the mainlands. Food is expensive in Puerto Rico and USVI. The wealthy seems to be doing well in the USVI though, but there isn't much employment to go around for the native-born on either island, including the youth, so they leave and move to the mainland.

But about Puerto Rico, becoming a 51st state, still not sure if that's a good thing for the people there. Just feel the culture may be exploited.
[Edited 6/12/17 5:19am]
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Reply #4 posted 06/12/17 6:28am

purplepoppy

It is amazing how little people in the "states" know about Puerto Rico and the USVI. The Caribbean chain is more of a country of itself even with various European flags still being flown over some of the islands. They are different in flavor because of that but they are all in the same boat in many ways - how to make money aside from tourist "season".

PR and the USVI are stuck in limbo. They are already getting beaucoup money from the US, both could be called states in that regard. But there is no incentive on the part of the mainland to improve the lot of the people.

Here's a weird story. Michael Jackson came to St Croix in the early '90s. He was looking at a (beautiful piece of) land near Frederiksted to purchase and build an amusement park. I worked in the best seasonal restaurant on the island. The chef/owner, Dino, called me and told me we were opening the restaurant on the day it was usually closed for a special guest. Turns out it was MJ. About 6 people showed up in a large dining room with security. MJ came the back way through the kitchen. I was the only waiter. He could not have been more gracious. He loved the food and asked to meet Dino. He bowed to us with his palms together when he left out the front door, pulling a sheer black mask up over his face.

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Reply #5 posted 06/12/17 7:19am

RodeoSchro

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purplepoppy said:

It is amazing how little people in the "states" know about Puerto Rico and the USVI. The Caribbean chain is more of a country of itself even with various European flags still being flown over some of the islands. They are different in flavor because of that but they are all in the same boat in many ways - how to make money aside from tourist "season".

PR and the USVI are stuck in limbo. They are already getting beaucoup money from the US, both could be called states in that regard. But there is no incentive on the part of the mainland to improve the lot of the people.

Here's a weird story. Michael Jackson came to St Croix in the early '90s. He was looking at a (beautiful piece of) land near Frederiksted to purchase and build an amusement park. I worked in the best seasonal restaurant on the island. The chef/owner, Dino, called me and told me we were opening the restaurant on the day it was usually closed for a special guest. Turns out it was MJ. About 6 people showed up in a large dining room with security. MJ came the back way through the kitchen. I was the only waiter. He could not have been more gracious. He loved the food and asked to meet Dino. He bowed to us with his palms together when he left out the front door, pulling a sheer black mask up over his face.




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Reply #6 posted 06/12/17 7:22am

RodeoSchro

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That's a great question.

I've been to Puerto Rico once. Loved it. It seemed to have a vibe of its own though. I never had the impression I was anywhere but in another country. Of course, I have no benchmark for this. I do fear Puerto Rico's internal culture would change a lot if it were a state. But maybe that's what its citizens want.

As with most things, it seems the best answer to this is an informed vote by its citizenry.

But what about the current US citizens? Do WE want another state?

Would we have to have the same kind of vote here in the US? Or is this even something that we should vote on? Who makes the decision?

.

[Edited 6/12/17 9:28am]

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Reply #7 posted 06/12/17 7:42am

2elijah

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purplepoppy said:

It is amazing how little people in the "states" know about Puerto Rico and the USVI. The Caribbean chain is more of a country of itself even with various European flags still being flown over some of the islands. They are different in flavor because of that but they are all in the same boat in many ways - how to make money aside from tourist "season".

PR and the USVI are stuck in limbo. They are already getting beaucoup money from the US, both could be called states in that regard. But there is no incentive on the part of the mainland to improve the lot of the people.

Here's a weird story. Michael Jackson came to St Croix in the early '90s. He was looking at a (beautiful piece of) land near Frederiksted to purchase and build an amusement park. I worked in the best seasonal restaurant on the island. The chef/owner, Dino, called me and told me we were opening the restaurant on the day it was usually closed for a special guest. Turns out it was MJ. About 6 people showed up in a large dining room with security. MJ came the back way through the kitchen. I was the only waiter. He could not have been more gracious. He loved the food and asked to meet Dino. He bowed to us with his palms together when he left out the front door, pulling a sheer black mask up over his face.



Cool story about MJ. Yes both Puerto Rico and USVI have some similarities. They can't vote in U.S. elections, but the people are American citizens. Much of their economy relies on tourism. But, just like in the states, there are many residents there living in lower-economic situations. Pretty much like several of the other islands in the Caribbean. Then you have many who are professionals, own land and doing well.

To trivial pursuit's question, I'm still unsure if Puerto Rico should become a 51st state.
[Edited 6/12/17 7:47am]
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Reply #8 posted 06/12/17 7:45am

2freaky4church
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Democracy Now had on Oscar Rivera.

Juan from dm was once in a radical Puerto Rican group like the Panthers.

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Reply #9 posted 06/12/17 7:51am

2freaky4church
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The right will never allow them to be a state. They would vote democratic.

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Reply #10 posted 06/12/17 7:55am

2elijah

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2freaky4church1 said:

Democracy Now had on Oscar Rivera.



Juan from dm was once in a radical Puerto Rican group like the Panthers.


Yes, yesterday was the Puerto Rican Day parade in NYC. He marched in that parade.
[Edited 6/12/17 7:56am]
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Reply #11 posted 06/12/17 8:01am

2freaky4church
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Eye No.

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Reply #12 posted 06/12/17 8:19am

purplepoppy

Puerto Rico and USVI were purchased as military strategy locations. This statehood thing has been raging for decades and is probably dead in the water no matter who does or does not "want" it. No money in it. The USVI is about 90% people of color, something no Americans get until they live there. It is not like the states, white people rules are not the norm.

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Reply #13 posted 06/12/17 9:15am

SuperFurryAnim
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PR should be the 51st state if they want to be. Marco Rubio would be next President.

Puerto Rican. Ethnic composition: white (mostly Spanish origin) 80.5%, black 8%, Amerindian 0.4%, Asian 0.2%, mixed and other 10.9%.

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Reply #14 posted 06/12/17 9:33am

OnlyNDaUsa

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so the flag would be what? 6, 6, 5, 6, 5 ,6, 5, 6, 6 rows of stars? or maybe 5, 6, 6, 5, 6, 6, 5, 6, 6

With Love, Honor & Respect for all of you...no matter how I argue or disagree my heart is full of love for you all...
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Reply #15 posted 06/12/17 10:50am

2elijah

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SuperFurryAnimal said:

PR should be the 51st state if they want to be. Marco Rubio would be next President.


Puerto Rican. Ethnic composition: white (mostly Spanish origin) 80.5%, black 8%, Amerindian 0.4%, Asian 0.2%, mixed and other 10.9%.


^^^Not true:

https://indiancountrymedi...d-history/



Indigenous Puerto Rico: DNA evidence upsets established history
A blending of Taino, Spanish and African in DNA evidence
Rick Kearns • March 20, 2017



"According to the study funded by the U.S. National Science Foundation, 61 percent of all Puerto Ricans have Amerindian mitochondrial DNA, 27 percent have African and 12 percent Caucasian. (Nuclear DNA, or the genetic material present in a gene’s nucleus, is inherited in equal parts from one’s father and mother. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited only from one’s mother and does not change or blend with other materials over time.)"

In other words a majority of Puerto Ricans have Native blood.

“Our study showed there was assimilation,” Martinez-Cruzado explained, “but the people were not extinguished. Their political and social structure was but the genes were not.

“The people were assimilated into a new colonial order and became mixed – but that’s what Puerto Ricans are: Indians mixed with Africans and Spaniards,” he asserted.

“There has been an under-estimation of the Amerindian heritage of Puerto Rico, much larger than most historians will admit,” he said.



https://www.google.com/am...ehood/amp/


What it means to be Puerto Rican

"Puerto Rico’s ethnic heritage is a blend of European, indigenous and African cultures. There’s no one way to describe how native Puerto Ricans look today, former Miss Puerto Rico Universe Ingrid Rivera told Kamau Bell. “You can see absolutely everything here.”


Having Puerto Rican roots is like belonging to a huge, close-knit family, and those members who achieve success on the international stage are a source of immense pride..."
[Edited 6/12/17 11:51am]
[Edited 6/12/17 11:55am]
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Reply #16 posted 06/12/17 11:01am

2elijah

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https://www.google.com/am...ehood/amp/



What is the next step after Puerto Rico votes for US statehood
CNN Wire
6 hours ago



Puerto Rico on Sunday overwhelmingly voted for statehood. But Congress, the only body that can approve new states, will ultimately decide whether the status of the US commonwealth changes.

Ninety-seven percent of the votes in the nonbinding referendum favored statehood, an increase over the results of a 2012 referendum, official results from the State Electoral Commission show. It was the fifth such vote on statehood.


“Today, we the people of Puerto Rico are sending a strong and clear message to the US Congress … and to the world … claiming our equal rights as American citizens, Puerto Rico Gov. Ricardo Rosselló said in a news release.


What do we really know about Puerto Rico?

"When outsiders think of Puerto Rico, a couple of things probably come to mind: It’s a small island in the Caribbean. People mostly speak Spanish there. It’s not a US state but has American ties. They were the Sharks in “West Side Story.” (Wait, maybe they were the Jets?) But there’s so much more to know.

Some Puerto Ricans are raring to cozy up with America to jump-start a flagging economy; meanwhile, some residents would just as soon maintain the status quo, and others would prefer to break ties altogether.

Momentum has been building for the island shaped like a postage stamp to join the union as the 51st state, so it’s probably smart to start reading up about America’s cousin to the south — its background, economic status and heritage."

(Click to continue reading)
[Edited 6/12/17 11:14am]
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Reply #17 posted 06/12/17 11:07am

2elijah

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purplepoppy said:

Puerto Rico and USVI were purchased as military strategy locations. This statehood thing has been raging for decades and is probably dead in the water no matter who does or does not "want" it. No money in it. The USVI is about 90% people of color, something no Americans get until they live there. It is not like the states, white people rules are not the norm.




@ bolded part, correct. A territory like PR and next door to Puerto Rico. Both PR and USVI have their own flags. All my maternal/paternal aunts and uncles and paternal grandparents born/lived there;maternal grandparents lived there.
[Edited 6/12/17 11:12am]
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Reply #18 posted 06/12/17 11:22am

2elijah

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As stated by Kamau Bell, in below vid:

"...Puerto Ricans who live in PR, cannot vote in the U.S. presidential election, however, if they move to the mainland, they can vote in the US presidential election...."



[Edited 6/12/17 11:45am]
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Reply #19 posted 06/12/17 11:28am

2elijah

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Reply #20 posted 06/12/17 12:38pm

2freaky4church
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You know she don't like Obama?

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Reply #21 posted 06/12/17 1:10pm

purplepoppy

I missed both Clinton elections living in the territory of USVI. PR is the same. 20 minute seaplane ride away. Freaky is right about not wanting the mostly Dem voters. I do not think PR will make it to statehood anytime soon.


[Edited 6/12/17 13:17pm]

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Reply #22 posted 06/12/17 3:57pm

2elijah

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2freaky4church1 said:

You know she don't like Obama?


^^^^^*It's not like everyone is obligated to like any president.
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Reply #23 posted 06/12/17 4:00pm

morningsong

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Naw, just keep them as red-headed step children, part of the family but not really.

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“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
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Reply #24 posted 06/18/17 7:05pm

214

Let's ask the only puerto rican that matters: Ricky Martin.

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