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Thread started 05/31/17 4:52pm

2freaky4church
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Did you know most jews are not jews?

This is not me, this is Israeli historian Shlomo Sand in his Myth Of The Jewish People book, which was a best seller in Israel. He makes the point that most Israeli jews are secular and their family background is from recent converts. He did a DNA link that showed that the Palestinians are linked to the original Hebrews. The European jews are not. You cannot be Jewish without being converted to the religion. That means Whoopie Goldberg is more Jewish than Noam. Shlomo himself says he is no longer Jewish. He says he does not want to be part of any special group especially since that group does not exist. Israelis are Israelis not Jews. They have zero links to Moses. He also shows that the exile never happened. I'm a Christian but tend to agree. I use the exile as symbolism. Experts on Rome prove that they did not exile the jews. Pretty shocking. Obviously he had lots of pushback, especially from American critics.

His main reason for the book was to equalize both sides. Not present Israelis as special victims.

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Reply #1 posted 05/31/17 4:55pm

2freaky4church
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By the way this is not anti semitism. On Hitler Shlomo just implies he was a dolt. lol

Israelis have equal rights. There are actual jews, but that is a religion. They are not hebrews. The only difference. Being against the arabs is more anti semitic.

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Reply #2 posted 05/31/17 6:50pm

toejam

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It all boils down to arbitrary definition. The terms "Jew" / "Jewish" etc. mean different things to different people at different times and different places. And this is the case with most of the larger religions. The bigger they become, the more watered down and inclusive their definitions become. And this is why arguments over who is or isn't a "true" Jew/Christian/Muslim/Hindu etc. are mostly pointless.

.
[Edited 5/31/17 18:55pm]
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Reply #3 posted 06/01/17 6:29am

Dasein

Scott, what is your recommendation for a worthy book explaining and/or detailing this process mentioned
in your post?


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Reply #4 posted 06/01/17 11:31am

2freaky4church
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Who is scott?

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Reply #5 posted 06/01/17 11:32am

2freaky4church
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The point is why Israel uses that term. Victimization and power.

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Reply #6 posted 06/01/17 11:47am

IanRG

toejam said:

It all boils down to arbitrary definition. The terms "Jew" / "Jewish" etc. mean different things to different people at different times and different places. And this is the case with most of the larger religions. The bigger they become, the more watered down and inclusive their definitions become. And this is why arguments over who is or isn't a "true" Jew/Christian/Muslim/Hindu etc. are mostly pointless. . [Edited 5/31/17 18:55pm]

.

There is a huge difference between religions meant for all and one that is believed to be for the Chosen people.

.

For example, it says nothing that it is unlikely that a Mongolian Catholic is a direct descendent of a Christian who knew Jesus as most would assume none of the local converts are.

.

The point that is being made by Shlomo Sand is about where a religion and a people are the same, there is a surprisingly good summary of his book in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/...sh_People.

[Edited 6/1/17 12:23pm]

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Reply #7 posted 06/01/17 11:50am

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

Who is scott?

.

Aren't we all Scots in someway? Perhaps not genetically but like being a "Jew", perhaps that is not important?

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Reply #8 posted 06/01/17 12:05pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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the ethnic term Hebrew needs to be used more

What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In someone else's box?
Tell me, what's the matter with your world
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Reply #9 posted 06/01/17 12:19pm

2freaky4church
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Sand says the Palestinians are Hebrew.

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Reply #10 posted 06/01/17 12:35pm

lust

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The book was published in 2008.

Here's a paper published in Nature in 2014 which maps the genome of European Jews. They are indeed of Middle Eastern origin.
https://www.nature.com/ar...ncomms5835

It's quite funny really. I'm sure we're all familiar with the old European anti Semitic caricature of a Jew. A short big nosed dark curly haired Semite. Well that imagery wasn't born in a vacuum. Anti Semitism has evolved from the Jew being the hated other to being focused on the denial of indigenous history in Israel. We're no longer the other. We're just like you. Albeit with a 1000 years of persecution when we weren't considered so.
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Reply #11 posted 06/01/17 12:38pm

lust

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OldFriends4Sale said:


the ethnic term Hebrew needs to be used more



I could roll with that. I'm not a believer so it would better describe my ethnicity than Jew which confuses people into thinking I may hold supernatural beliefs.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Reply #12 posted 06/01/17 12:40pm

2freaky4church
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Sand is a former Jew.

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Reply #13 posted 06/01/17 12:48pm

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

Sand is a former Jew.



And?
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Reply #14 posted 06/01/17 1:23pm

2freaky4church
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His evidence is pretty dead on. There is a lot of pushback, obviously because of the Israel lobby.

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Reply #15 posted 06/01/17 1:24pm

2freaky4church
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Also both Chomsky and Finkelstein like the book.

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Reply #16 posted 06/01/17 2:02pm

IanRG

2freaky4church1 said:

His evidence is pretty dead on. There is a lot of pushback, obviously because of the Israel lobby.



But so is the counter evidence. Just as there is "Israel" lobby, Sand has his agenda. You need to look at both sides and assess the evidence, not ignore one side just because the other fits better with your beliefs.
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Reply #17 posted 06/01/17 2:06pm

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

His evidence is pretty dead on. There is a lot of pushback, obviously because of the Israel lobby.



Bound to be pushback. Then again there's also the study that I linked to that took place 6 years after his book was published, that demonstrates that yes, Jews from Europe have their origins in the Levant. DNA doesn't lie.

But hey, you can ignore that and focus on whatever supports your own narrative.


Fuck though. I wish you white Europeans would have been as happy to accept Jews as your own for all those centuries you were persecuting us. You know, that treatment that kept alive the desire for self determination and led to the wish for return. Zionism. So if Zionism is so awful, best you look to your ancestors. 😉
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Reply #18 posted 06/01/17 2:11pm

Dasein

2freaky4church1 said:

Who is scott?


He's probably the most talented musician in the Org; certainly the second most annoying.

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Reply #19 posted 06/01/17 2:15pm

2freaky4church
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If you are a religious jew than you are jewish. A secular jew is not.

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Reply #20 posted 06/01/17 2:31pm

2freaky4church
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Lust, there's nothing in that report that says the European Jews are from the original Hebrews. It says middle east which doesn't mean a thing. The original hebrews were in Greece, Rome, Egypt.

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Reply #21 posted 06/01/17 2:32pm

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

If you are a religious jew than you are jewish. A secular jew is not.



Not according to Judaism.

But hey, I'll advise the rabbis that some guy on a prince fan site would like to invoke his white privilege and re define what it means to be Jewish.

Apparently I'd be Jewish enough for a German oven but not Jewish enough for 2freaky.
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Reply #22 posted 06/01/17 2:34pm

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

Lust, there's nothing in that report that says the European Jews are from the original Hebrews. It says middle east which doesn't mean a thing. The original hebrews were in Greece, Rome, Egypt.



So you accept that the Jews are from the Middle East? Good. And now we're back.
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Reply #23 posted 06/01/17 2:38pm

2freaky4church
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They were in Turkey. Ottoman empire. They are recent converts, very simple. We are all equal humans. The Sand point.

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Reply #24 posted 06/01/17 2:39pm

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

Lust, there's nothing in that report that says the European Jews are from the original Hebrews. It says middle east which doesn't mean a thing. The original hebrews were in Greece, Rome, Egypt.




WHOAH. I missed that.

You say the original Hebrews.....were from Rome?
lol lol

Thats the funniest shit I've seen on here a long time.
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Reply #25 posted 06/01/17 2:41pm

2freaky4church
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They were in Rome. I told you the exile was made up.

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Reply #26 posted 06/01/17 2:43pm

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

They were in Turkey. Ottoman empire. They are recent converts, very simple. We are all equal humans. The Sand point.



The Ottoman Empire? lol

Please don't stop. This is gold.

The Hebrews originated in the Ottoman Empire which was founded in
1299. And yet, your homeboy Jesus,
A Jew was in Israel in the first century. That beats the whole water into wine thing.

No point in continuing this. Your last two posts have shown such an ignorance
of history and geography, it's embarrassing.
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Reply #27 posted 06/01/17 2:49pm

lust

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There you go. There's way more in the link if you want to go there. You can cherry pick the bits that suit your narrative and ignore the majority of it if it helps you sleep at night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

Recent studies[edit]

Recent studies have been conducted on a large number of genes homologous chromosomes or autosomes (all chromosomes except chromosomes X and Y). A 2009 study was able to genetically identify individuals with full or partial Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.[8] In August 2012, Dr. Harry Ostrer in his book Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People, summarized his and other work in genetics of the last 20 years, and concluded that all major Jewish groups share a common Middle Eastern origin.[9] Ostrer also claimed to have refuted the Khazar theory of Ashkenazi ancestry.[10] Citing autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East." He further noticed that "The two communities seem very similar to each other genetically, which is unexpected because they have been separated for so long." Concerning this relationship he points to Atzmon's conclusions that "the shared genetic elements suggest that members of any Jewish community are related to one another as closely as are fourth or fifth cousins in a large population, which is about 10 times higher than the relationship between two people chosen at random off the streets of New York City"[11] Concerning North African Jews, autosomal genetic analysis in 2012 revealed that North African Jews are genetically close to European Jews. This finding "shows that North African Jews date to biblical-era Israel, and are not largely the descendants of natives who converted to Judaism,"[12]Y DNA studies examine various paternal lineages of modern Jewish populations. Such studies tend to imply a small number of founders in an old population whose members parted and followed different migration paths.[13] In most Jewish populations, these male line ancestors appear to have been mainly Middle Eastern. For example, Ashkenazi Jews share more common paternal lineages with other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than with non-Jewish populations in areas where Jews lived in Eastern Europe, Germany and the French Rhine Valley. This is consistent with Jewish traditions in placing most Jewish paternal origins in the region of the Middle East.[14][3]

A study conducted in 2013 found no evidence of a Khazar origin for Ashkenazi Jews and suggested that "Ashkenazi Jews share the greatest genetic ancestry with other Jewish populations, and among non-Jewish populations, with groups from Europe and the Middle East. No particular similarity of Ashkenazi Jews with populations from the Caucasus is evident, particularly with the populations that most closely represent the Khazar region. In this view, analysis of Ashkenazi Jews together with a large sample from the region of the Khazar Khaganate would corroborate earlier results that Ashkenazi Jews derive their ancestry primarily from populations of the Middle East and Europe, that they possess considerable shared ancestry with other Jewish populations, and that there is no indication of a significant genetic contribution either from within or from north of the Caucasus region."[15]

In 2016, together with R. Das, P. Wexler and M. Pirooznia, Elhaik advanced the view that the first Ashkenazi populations to speak the Yiddish language came from areas near four villages in Eastern Turkey along the Silk Road whose names derived from the word "Ashkenaz", arguing that Iranian, Greek, Turkish, and Slav populations converted on that travel route before moving to Khazaria, where a small-scale conversion took place.[16][17] The study was dismissed by Sergio DellaPergola as a "falsification", claiming it failed to include Jewish groups such as the Italkim and Sephardic Jews, to whom Ashkenazi Jews are closely related genetically. Shaul Stampfer, a professor of Soviet and East European Jewry at the Hebrew University, called Elhaik research "basically a nonsense". Elhaik replied that the DNA of non-Ashkenazic Jews would not effect the origin of DNA hypothesized for the former.[18] Prof. Dovid Katz, founder of Vilnius University’s Yiddish Institute savaged the study’s linguistic analysis. “The authors have melded accurate but contextually meaningless genetic correlations with laughable linguistic theories that now proliferate, sadly, as a consequence of a much weakened Yiddish academic environment internationally".[19] In joint study published in 2016 by Genome Biology and Evolution, Pavel Flegontov from Department of Biology and Ecology, Faculty of Science, University of Ostrava, Czech Republic, A.A. Kharkevich Institute of Linguistics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Mark G. Thomas from Research Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment, University College London, UK, Valentina Fedchenko from Saint Petersburg State University,and George Starostin from Russian State University for the Humanities,dismissed both the genetic and linguistic components of Elhaik at al study arguing that "GPS is a provenancing tool suited to inferring the geographic region where a modern and recently unadmixed genome is most likely to arise, but is hardly suitable for admixed populations and for tracing ancestry up to 1000 years before present, as its authors have previously claimed. Moreover, all methods of historical linguistics concur that Yiddish is a Germanic language, with no reliable evidence for Slavic, Iranian, or Turkic substrata." The authors concluded:

"In our view, Das and co-authors have attempted to fit together a marginal and unsupported interpretation of the linguistic data with a genetic provenancing approach, GPS, that is at best only suited to inferring the most likely geographic location of modern and relatively unadmixed genomes, and tells nothing of population history and origin."[20]

The authors, in response, defended the methodological adequacy of their approach.[21] In 2016 Elhaik reviewed the literature searching for a ‘Jüdische Typus’ argues that there is no genomic hallmark for Jewishness. While he allows that in the future it is possible that a ‘Jewish’ marker may turn up, so far, in his view, Jewishness turns out to be socially defined (a socionome), determined by non-genetic factors.[22]

Maternal lineages[edit]

The maternal lineages of Jewish populations, studied by looking at mitochondrial DNA, are generally more heterogeneous.[23] Scholars such as Harry Ostrer and Raphael Falk believe this may indicate that many Jewish males found new mates from European and other communities in the places where they migrated in the diaspora after fleeing ancient Israel.[24]

Two studies in 2006 and 2008 suggested that about 40% of Ashkenazi Jews originate maternally from just four female founders which are likely of Near-Eastern origin, while the populations of Sephardi and Mizrahi Jewish communities "showed no evidence for a narrow founder effect".[25][23] Evidence for female founders has been observed in other Jewish populations.

With the exception of Ethiopian Jews and Indian Jews, it has been argued that all of the various Jewish populations have components of mitochondrial genomes that were of Middle Eastern origin.[26][27]

In 2013, however, Richards et al. published work suggesting that an overwhelming majority of Ashkenazi Jewish maternal ancestry, estimated at "80 percent of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry comes from women indigenous to Europe, and [only] 8 percent from the Near East, with the rest uncertain",[28] suggesting that Jewish males migrated to Europe and took new wives from the local population, and converted them to Judaism. Another study by Eva Fernandez and her colleagues argues that the K lineages in Ashkenazi Jews might have an ancient Near Eastern source.[29]

DNA evidence[edit]

Studies of autosomal DNA, which look at the entire DNA mixture, have become increasingly important as the technology develops. They show that Jewish populations have tended to form relatively closely related groups in independent communities, with most in a community sharing significant ancestry in common.[30] For Jewish populations of the diaspora, the genetic composition of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jewish populations show a predominant amount of shared Middle Eastern ancestry. According to Behar, the most parsimonious explanation for this shared Middle Eastern ancestry is that it is "consistent with the historical formulation of the Jewish people as descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelite residents of the Levant" and "the dispersion of the people of ancient Israel throughout the Old World".[5] North African, Italian and others of Iberian origin show variable frequencies of admixture with non-Jewish historical host populations among the maternal lines. In the case of Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews (in particular Moroccan Jews), who are apparently closely related, the non-Jewish component is mainly southern European.[6] The studies show that the Bene Israel and Black Cochin Jews of India, and the Beta Israel of Ethiopia, while more closely resembling the local populations of their native countries, have some ancient Jewish descent.[27]

Paternal lineage, Y chromosome[edit]

In 1992 G. Lucotte and F. David were the first genetic researchers to have documented a common paternal genetic heritage between Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews.[31][32] Another study published just a year later suggested the Middle Eastern origin of Jewish paternal lineages.[33]

In 2000, M. Hammer, et al. conducted a study on 1371 men and definitively established that part of the paternal gene pool of Jewish communities in Europe, North Africa and Middle East came from a common Middle East ancestral population. They suggested that most Jewish communities in the Diaspora remained relatively isolated and endogamous compared to non-Jewish neighbor populations.[13][27][34]

In a study of Israeli and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of the Jewish men and 82% of the Arab men whose DNA was studied, had inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors, who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. "Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool."[35] In relation to the region of the Fertile Crescent, the same study noted; "In comparison with data available from other relevant populations in the region, Jews were found to be much more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors."[14]

Approximately 35% to 43% of Jewish men are in the paternal line known as haplogroup J[Note 1] and its sub-haplogroups. This Haplogroup is particularly present in the Middle East, Southern Europe, and Northern Africa.[36] Fifteen to 30% are in haplogroup E1b1b[Note 2], (or E-M35) and its sub-haplogroups.

Y-DNA of Ashkenazi Jews[edit]

A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome by Harry Ostrer and Michael Hammer, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[13] concluded that the Y chromosome of most Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." However, when all haplotypes were included in the analysis, the admixture percentage increased to 23% ± 7%.[Note 3] Hammer et al. add that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors." In addition, the authors have found that the "Jewish cluster was interspersed with the Palestinian and Syrian populations, whereas the other Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations (Saudi Arabians, Lebanese, and Druze) closely surrounded it. Of the Jewish populations in this cluster, the Ashkenazim were closest to South European populations (specifically the Greeks) and also to the Turks." The study estimated that Ashkenazi Jews are descended on their paternal side from a core population of approximately 20,000 Jews that migrated from Italy into the rest of Europe over the course of the first millennium, and that "All European Jews seem connected on the order of fourth or fifth cousins."[13]

The frequency of haplogroup R1b in the Ashkenazim population is similar to the frequency of R1b in Middle Eastern populations. Given that haplogroup R1b is particularly abundant in populations of Western Europe, studies of Nebel et al. (2001) and Behar et al. (2004)[38] suggest some Western European contribution to those ~10% of R1b found among Ashkenazim. The Behar et al. large 2004 study of Ashkenazi Jews records a percentage of 5% - 8% European contribution to the Ashkenazi gene pool.[Note 4] In the words of Behar:

Because haplogroups R-M17 (R1a) and R-P25 (R1b) are present in non-Ashkenazi Jewish populations (e.g., at 4% and 10%, respectively) and in non-Jewish Near Eastern populations (e.g., at 7% and 11%, respectively; Hammer et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2001), it is likely that they were also present at low frequency in the AJ (Ashkenazi Jewish) founding population. The admixture analysis shown in Table 6 suggests that 5%–8% of the Ashkenazi gene pool is, indeed, comprised of Y chromosomes that may have introgressed from non-Jewish European populations.

For G. Lucotte et al.,[39] the R1b frequency is about 11%.[Note 5] In 2004, When the calculation is made excluding Jews from Netherlands the R1b rate is 5% ± 11.6%.[38]

Two studies by Nebel et al. in 2001 and 2005, based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, suggested that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe (defined in the using Eastern European, German, and French Rhine Valley populations).[14][35] Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Kurdish Jews were all very closely related to the populations of the Fertile Crescent, even closer than to Arabs. The study speculated that the ancestors of the Arab populations of the Levant might have diverged due to mixing with migrants from the Arabian Peninsula.[14] However, 11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R1a1a (R-M17), the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern European populations. They hypothesized that these chromosomes could reflect low-level gene flow from surrounding Eastern European populations, or, alternatively, that both the Ashkenazi Jews with R1a1a (R-M17), and to a much greater extent Eastern European populations in general, might partly be descendants of Khazars. They concluded "However, if the R1a1a (R-M17) chromosomes in Ashkenazi Jews do indeed represent the vestiges of the mysterious Khazars then, according to our data, this contribution was limited to either a single founder or a few closely related men, and does not exceed ~12% of the present-day Ashkenazim.".[14][40] This hypothesis is also supported by the D. Goldstein in his book Jacob's legacy: A genetic view of Jewish history.[41] However, Faerman (2008) states that "External low-level gene flow of possible Eastern European origin has been shown in Ashkenazim but no evidence of a hypothetical Khazars' contribution to the Ashkenazi gene pool has ever been found.".[42]

Furthermore, 7%[38][43] of Ashkenazi have the haplogroup G2c, Behar et al. suggest that those haplogroups are minor Ashkenazi Jews founding lineages.[38]

A 2003 study of the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi Levites, a priestly class who comprise 4% of Ashkenazi Jews, found that the haplogroup R1a1a (R-M17), which is uncommon in the Middle East or among Sephardic Jews but dominant in Eastern Europe, is present in about 50% of Ashkenazi Levites, while the rest of the Ashkenazi Levites' paternal lineage is of apparent Middle Eastern origin. The study also found this haplogroup to be present in 1.7% of Ashkenazi Cohanim.[44]

Among Ashkenazi Jews, Jews of Netherlands seem to have a particular haplogroups distribution since nearly one quarter of them have the Haplogroup R1b1 (R-P25), in particular sub-haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269), which is characteristic of Western European populations.[38]

Ashkenazi men show low Y-DNA diversity within each major haplogroup, meaning that compared to the size of the modern population, it seems there were once a relatively small number of men having children. This possibly results from a series of founder events and high rates of endogamy within Europe. Despite Ashkenazi Jews representing a recently founded population in Europe, founding effects suggest that they probably derived from a large and diverse ancestral source population in the Middle East, who may have been larger than the source population from which the indigenous Europeans derived.[38]

If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Reply #28 posted 06/02/17 11:28am

2freaky4church
1

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Lust, you just won't stop. lol

What about Sand's evidence?

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Reply #29 posted 06/02/17 12:15pm

lust

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2freaky4church1 said:

Lust, you just won't stop. lol



What about Sand's evidence?



Seems there is no evidence. His claims are debunked by multiple genetic studies published in respected and peer reviews scientific journals, cited above. Historians and geneticists have labelled his claims as a myth with no
Factual basis. wink

In a study of Israeli and Palestinian Muslim Arabs, more than 70% of the Jewish men and 82% of the Arab men whose DNA was studied, had inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors, who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. "Our recent study of high-resolution microsatellite haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool."

CITATIONClose
[35] Nebel A, Filon D, Weiss DA, et al. (December 2000). "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews". Human Genetics. 107 (6): 630–641. doi:10.1007/s004390000426. PMID 11153918.
[Edited 6/2/17 12:16pm]
If the milk turns out to be sour, I aint the kinda pussy to drink it!
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Forums > Politics & Religion > Did you know most jews are not jews?