independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Tue 25th Apr 2017 7:07pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Politics & Religion > The Universe's Expansion: Implications About God?
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 1 of 4 1234>
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Author

Tweet     Share

Message
Thread started 04/03/17 3:53pm

Dasein

The Universe's Expansion: Implications About God?


According to NASA eggheads, the universe is still expanding, and expanding at a rate faster than
previously understood. (source)

For you theists, what are the theological implications here? Think about it this way: how can you
give a definitive statement about the quality of a chef and her meal if it is still cooking?

That the cosmos continues to unfold into new dimensions blows my mind; I can't wrap my head
around it. But it does speak to what we can say about God and whether or not God is immutable,
or gains new knowledge; or knows the future.


 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #1 posted 04/03/17 4:17pm

morningsong

avatar

Don't put God only in the mysteries.

I know some organization has some rules about all this, I'm not up on everybody's rules and bylaws. I left denominational congregation a long time ago.

Some force of gravity is at play that we don't understand as yet and the universe isn't eternal. As far as I'm concerned God isn't the universe so whatever the universe is doing doesn't equate to God's full nature. That's all I got for that.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #2 posted 04/03/17 5:11pm

toejam

avatar

Do the gods know that the universe is expanding?

Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #3 posted 04/03/17 6:19pm

IanRG

Dasein said:


According to NASA eggheads, the universe is still expanding, and expanding at a rate faster than
previously understood. (source)

For you theists, what are the theological implications here? Think about it this way: how can you
give a definitive statement about the quality of a chef and her meal if it is still cooking?

That the cosmos continues to unfold into new dimensions blows my mind; I can't wrap my head
around it. But it does speak to what we can say about God and whether or not God is immutable,
or gains new knowledge; or knows the future.


.

That the universe is expanding says nothing about God.

.

God's creation not being static is a given in virtually all aspects of the universe, why would you assume this is not also true about the universe, itself?

.

If God created the universe, and cannot be seen in it, then it is reasonable to assume He is outside of it. All the dimensions we perceive are part of that creation and all are within and only applicable to the universe including both physical and temporal dimenions. That they seen so vast to us within the universe says nothing about how they seem outside the universe. The internal time and distance would be nothing externally (what the universe looks like from the outside is a complete unknown to us all). There is no reason to not believe that God on the outside would be able to see all of the time and all of the distances because their nature to God is not determined by their nature to us within.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #4 posted 04/03/17 6:22pm

Dasein

IanRG said:

Dasein said:


According to NASA eggheads, the universe is still expanding, and expanding at a rate faster than
previously understood. (source)

For you theists, what are the theological implications here? Think about it this way: how can you
give a definitive statement about the quality of a chef and her meal if it is still cooking?

That the cosmos continues to unfold into new dimensions blows my mind; I can't wrap my head
around it. But it does speak to what we can say about God and whether or not God is immutable,
or gains new knowledge; or knows the future.


.

That the universe is expanding says nothing about God.

.

.

If God created the universe . . .



I'm off to bed, but that's a contradiction.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #5 posted 04/03/17 6:53pm

IanRG

Dasein said:

IanRG said:

.

That the universe is expanding says nothing about God.

.

.

If God created the universe . . .



I'm off to bed, but that's a contradiction.

.

No it is not.

.

If you think that all things must be within our universe including God, then is wrong both within our understanding of cosmology and theology. The multiverse and consideration of what was before the big bang recognises that there are probably things outside of, and before our universe. If God is before all things were created then this is before, and outside of the universe.

.

If you think that creating the universe means it must never, ever change then this is your opinion and contrary to cosmology, biology and theology. Cosmology and biology are based on change and development and theology undertands that there is growth and development as well as endings.

[Edited 4/3/17 19:15pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #6 posted 04/03/17 6:57pm

morningsong

avatar

The rules of the universe of what we can see so far are set... the same convection that made our solar system is the same convection that gives life energy on this planet. It was only way bigger and didn't last as long. But they both function the exact same way. We can see the exact same thing happening in different stages regardless where we look. The space in the universe is expanding but galaxies don't, nor does the solar system nor do we.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #7 posted 04/03/17 9:13pm

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar


I think that Jehovah is just the god of our solar system, and he is probably pretty far down on the hierarchy in the universe.

"Alternative Facts" Kellyanne Conway
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #8 posted 04/04/17 6:25am

IanRG

QueenofCardboard said:


I think that Jehovah is just the god of our solar system, and he is probably pretty far down on the hierarchy in the universe.

.

Why?

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #9 posted 04/04/17 6:56am

Dasein

IanRG said:

Dasein said:



I'm off to bed, but that's a contradiction.

.

No it is not.

.

If you think that all things must be within our universe including God, then is wrong both within our understanding of cosmology and theology. The multiverse and consideration of what was before the big bang recognises that there are probably things outside of, and before our universe. If God is before all things were created then this is before, and outside of the universe.

.

If you think that creating the universe means it must never, ever change then this is your opinion and contrary to cosmology, biology and theology. Cosmology and biology are based on change and development and theology undertands that there is growth and development as well as endings.

[Edited 4/3/17 19:15pm]


Yes, it is a contradiction.

You can't assert that God is the creator of the universe and then say the universe says nothing
about God, or, that we can't even infer things about God - the latter's not your argument, I know,
but follow me here. For example: Prince does not compose a physical constituent of "Girls &
Boys." Yet, that song does have qualities where we can infer characteristics of Prince as a
creator or assert with some justification certain qualities about Prince: he's quirky, he was a
Francophile, he enjoyed working with female recording artists, etc. To say that Prince is the author
of "Girls & Boys" and then also claim that the song says
nothing about Prince at all is a contra-
diction for we can at least assert "Prince is a creator."
So, theistically speaking, that the universe
is still expanding says that God created a still emerging universe; then, we can safely assume,
theistically, that God has the ability to be an emergent creator which is to say something about
God, obviously.

If we say that God is the creator of this universe, we can with total justification make assertions
about who/what God is and/or what kind of creator God is, etc. And we can with total justification
make inferences about who/what God is, etc. In my opinion, that the universe is still expanding
seems to signal that destiny and fate are not qualities inherent within reality or our existence,
which has pretty significant implications theologically.

And I'm not even talking about the implications the many worlds theory may have on theology!


 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #10 posted 04/04/17 7:08am

E319

Dasein said:

For you theists, what are the theological implications here? Think about it this way: how can you
give a definitive statement about the quality of a chef and her meal if it is still cooking?

That the cosmos continues to unfold into new dimensions blows my mind; I can't wrap my head
around it. But it does speak to what we can say about God and whether or not God is immutable,
or gains new knowledge; or knows the future.



The theological implications to me as a Christian is that we will have all of eternity to explore God's mind blowing creation.

Black day, stormy night/No love, no hope in sight...
Don't cry, he is coming/Don't die, without knowing...
The Cross.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #11 posted 04/04/17 7:14am

IanRG

Dasein said:

IanRG said:

.

No it is not.

.

If you think that all things must be within our universe including God, then is wrong both within our understanding of cosmology and theology. The multiverse and consideration of what was before the big bang recognises that there are probably things outside of, and before our universe. If God is before all things were created then this is before, and outside of the universe.

.

If you think that creating the universe means it must never, ever change then this is your opinion and contrary to cosmology, biology and theology. Cosmology and biology are based on change and development and theology undertands that there is growth and development as well as endings.

[Edited 4/3/17 19:15pm]


Yes, it is a contradiction.

You can't assert that God is the creator of the universe and then say the universe says nothing
about God, or, that we can't even infer things about God - the latter's not your argument, I know,
but follow me here. For example: Prince does not compose a physical constituent of "Girls &
Boys." Yet, that song does have qualities where we can infer characteristics of Prince as a
creator or assert with some justification certain qualities about Prince: he's quirky, he was a
Francophile, he enjoyed working with female recording artists, etc. To say that Prince is the author
of "Girls & Boys" and then also claim that the song says
nothing about Prince at all is a contra-
diction for we can at least assert "Prince is a creator."
So, theistically speaking, that the universe
is still expanding says that God created a still emerging universe; then, we can safely assume,
theistically, that God has the ability to be an emergent creator which is to say something about
God, obviously.

If we say that God is the creator of this universe, we can with total justification make assertions
about who/what God is and/or what kind of creator God is, etc. And we can with total justification
make inferences about who/what God is, etc. In my opinion, that the universe is still expanding
seems to signal that destiny and fate are not qualities inherent within reality or our existence,
which has pretty significant implications theologically.

And I'm not even talking about the implications the many worlds theory may have on theology!


.

It is not a contradiction unless you are trying to read something into the particular characteristic that the universe is expanding. To play with your analogy - Girls and Boys is 3:27 - This says nothing about Prince.

.

Why do you think that the universe expanding means destiny and fate are not qualities inherent within our reality?

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #12 posted 04/04/17 7:25am

RodeoSchro

avatar

If we don't know what's on the other side of the universe, how do we know it's expanding?

Second Funkiest White Man in America

Cowardice always hides behind insinuation
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #13 posted 04/04/17 7:33am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

God not gods. Blasphemy.

He is expanding the universe because heaven is getting more people. giggle

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #14 posted 04/04/17 7:43am

E319

Great answer 2Freaky.

Black day, stormy night/No love, no hope in sight...
Don't cry, he is coming/Don't die, without knowing...
The Cross.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #15 posted 04/04/17 8:17am

morningsong

avatar

I think this argument is only a point if one is a pantheist, that God and the universe are one and the same. I'm taking it that most believer, after serious consideration, are not pantheist.
“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #16 posted 04/04/17 12:52pm

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar


IanRG said:


QueenofCardboard said:


I think that Jehovah is just the god of our solar system, and he is probably pretty far down on the hierarchy in the universe.



Why?



Jehovah is anthropomorphised

Life on other planets in other solar systems would have a God made in their own image, and who knows what that would be like.

But Jehovah should be satisfied with being the God of our solar system.

Our solar system is awesome.



[Edited 4/4/17 13:18pm]

"Alternative Facts" Kellyanne Conway
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #17 posted 04/04/17 1:12pm

morningsong

avatar

QueenofCardboard said:


IanRG said:



Why?



Jehovah is anthropomorphised

Life on other planets in other solar systems would have a God made in their own image, and who knows what that would be like.

But Jehovah should be satisfied with being the God of solar system.

Our solar system is awesome.





So he's/she's/it's Planet X???? I knew it!!! Out there just hanging out, throwing a curve ball once in a while to shake things up.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #18 posted 04/04/17 1:18pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

there is a rap by "Mc Hawking " (as in Stephen Hawking) said

"The cosmos is expanding every second, every day, but their minds are shrinking as they close their eyes and pray..."

Life is just a party and parties weren't meant to last~ 21,138 days
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #19 posted 04/04/17 2:26pm

morningsong

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

there is a rap by "Mc Hawking " (as in Stephen Hawking) said

"The cosmos is expanding every second, every day, but their minds are shrinking as they close their eyes and pray..."




Yet closing your eyes to meditate is expanding oneself?


Some people have some personal issues that need working out, I think he's one of them. Doesn't take away from his genius but it's a reminder he's still a fallible human being.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #20 posted 04/04/17 2:31pm

IanRG

QueenofCardboard said:


IanRG said:



Why?



Jehovah is anthropomorphised

Life on other planets in other solar systems would have a God made in their own image, and who knows what that would be like.

But Jehovah should be satisfied with being the God of our solar system.

Our solar system is awesome.

.

If each planet's gods are creations only in the minds of intelligent life on that planet, then there are two possibilities, neither of which will make that god, a god only of that solar system.

.

1 Intelligent life cannot create a real god by imagination, therefore it does not exist outside of those people's minds at all and it will not be the god of that solar system or anything and it will not be able to be satisfied or dissatisfied or anything.

.

2 Intelligent life can create a real god by imagination, therefore that god is only limited by imagination and not the location of the minds that creates it. If we can create a real god able to be the god of Pluto and all the other off-world objects in our solar system where there are no human minds simply by our imaginations, then we can imagine and create a real god able to be the god of the universe.

[Edited 4/4/17 14:33pm]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #21 posted 04/04/17 3:22pm

QueenofCardboa
rd

avatar


IanRG said:


QueenofCardboard said:


Jehovah is anthropomorphised

Life on other planets in other solar systems would have a God made in their own image, and who knows what that would be like.

But Jehovah should be satisfied with being the God of our solar system.

Our solar system is awesome.


If each planet's gods are creations only in the minds of intelligent life on that planet, then there are two possibilities, neither of which will make that god, a god only of that solar system.

1 Intelligent life cannot create a real god by imagination, therefore it does not exist outside of those people's minds at all and it will not be the god of that solar system or anything and it will not be able to be satisfied or dissatisfied or anything.

2 Intelligent life can create a real god by imagination, therefore that god is only limited by imagination and not the location of the minds that creates it. If we can create a real god able to be the god of Pluto and all the other off-world objects in our solar system where there are no human minds simply by our imaginations, then we can imagine and create a real god able to be the god of the universe.




I don't think Jehovah is God of the universe.

As I stated before, I think that our solar system is plenty big enough for Jehovah to manage.

And if the Universe is expanding, it is not Jehovah's doing, but probably someone higher up.


"Alternative Facts" Kellyanne Conway
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #22 posted 04/04/17 3:50pm

toejam

avatar

I think saying Jehovah is an anthropomorphized god of our solar system is an empty statement bordering on equivocation over how the god conception of Jehovah is more commonly understood.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #23 posted 04/04/17 3:52pm

toejam

avatar

It's like saying Buddha is a fairy who lives under a shamrock
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #24 posted 04/04/17 3:53pm

toejam

avatar

I think you would love early Christian Gnostic texts like the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Mary Magdalene etc. Have you read these?
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #25 posted 04/04/17 4:33pm

IanRG

QueenofCardboard said:




IanRG said:





QueenofCardboard said:




Jehovah is anthropomorphised

Life on other planets in other solar systems would have a God made in their own image, and who knows what that would be like.

But Jehovah should be satisfied with being the God of our solar system.

Our solar system is awesome.





If each planet's gods are creations only in the minds of intelligent life on that planet, then there are two possibilities, neither of which will make that god, a god only of that solar system.



1 Intelligent life cannot create a real god by imagination, therefore it does not exist outside of those people's minds at all and it will not be the god of that solar system or anything and it will not be able to be satisfied or dissatisfied or anything.



2 Intelligent life can create a real god by imagination, therefore that god is only limited by imagination and not the location of the minds that creates it. If we can create a real god able to be the god of Pluto and all the other off-world objects in our solar system where there are no human minds simply by our imaginations, then we can imagine and create a real god able to be the god of the universe.









I don't think Jehovah is God of the universe.

As I stated before, I think that our solar system is plenty big enough for Jehovah to manage.

And if the Universe is expanding, it is not Jehovah's doing, but probably someone higher up.




Who is this higher up?
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #26 posted 04/04/17 5:39pm

toejam

avatar

According to some Gnostic myths, Jehovah is Yaldabaoth, a lesser deity who THINKS he is the Lord of all.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #27 posted 04/05/17 10:43am

2freaky4church
1

avatar

Gnostic is code for apostate.

"2freaky is a complete stud." DJ
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #28 posted 04/05/17 12:53pm

toejam

avatar

RodeoSchro said:

If we don't know what's on the other side of the universe, how do we know it's expanding?



Through noting the 'red shift' and studying background radiation. Google.
Toejam @ Peach & Black Podcast: http://peachandblack.podbean.com
Toejam's band "Cheap Fakes": http://cheapfakes.com.au, http://www.facebook.com/cheapfakes
Toejam the solo artist: http://www.youtube.com/scottbignell
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #29 posted 04/05/17 1:01pm

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

morningsong said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

there is a rap by "Mc Hawking " (as in Stephen Hawking) said

"The cosmos is expanding every second, every day, but their minds are shrinking as they close their eyes and pray..."




Yet closing your eyes to meditate is expanding oneself?


Some people have some personal issues that need working out, I think he's one of them. Doesn't take away from his genius but it's a reminder he's still a fallible human being.

just to clarify: McHawking is a parody of Stephen Hawking as a gansta rapper. It is old but funny... the quote above is from a song called "F the Creationist" he has others too like "Entropy"

Life is just a party and parties weren't meant to last~ 21,138 days
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 1 of 4 1234>
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Politics & Religion > The Universe's Expansion: Implications About God?