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Thread started 06/12/17 1:58pm

morningsong

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Re-watching Tudor

Okay, I'm re-watching it because I never finished it the first time, I was seriously losing track of all the Thomases. But now I'm also watching the White Princess (also finishing up the White Queen) and having fun tying the relationships together, even though these are fictional depiction of historical characters. But I'm wondering about "the curse" of (K)Catherine's mother (in WP) regarding the princes in the tower, is that historical? Would explain some of the erractic, or rather, desparate behavior of H-VIII. All I ever learned in history class about H-VIII was that he beheaded all his wives because they couldn't give him a son. I wasn't a history buff so I never read further into it. I'm a little peeved about that, but I see why we were left with only that impression of him.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #1 posted 06/12/17 10:25pm

TrivialPursuit

Your history teacher should be shot. LOL He didn't behead all of his wives. It was actually a cycle through the six. Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, died. He did not behead them because they couldn't give him a son, although he did feel it a betrayal. (What small minds.)

Catherine of Aragon was finally divorced when Henry overturned the Catholic church in favor of a Protestant church (which is why a Protestant wedding or church looks Catholic on TV - like Diana & Charles' wedding, but it's really not - it's a lot of left over iconography, etc). The reformation rang for years throughout England and beyond. Monasteries etc were destroyed, their gold looted, their statues and homes burned or otherwise desecrated. All at Henry's order. Those who didn't rebuke their Catholic past and reform were often run out of town (commoners) or beheaded or otherwise ended (his court, etc). Henry was spoiled & wanted what he wanted right now. He executed Anne Boleyn, and Jane Seymour died. He divorced Anne of Cleaves. He found her ...unappealing. He executed Catherine Howard, and his last wife Catharine Parr died.

Henry was on the outs with his two daughters, Mary and Elizabeth - one being quite Catholic, and the other being quite Protestant, respectively. Mary was so hateful, she had Protestants executed. (It's where the term Bloody Mary comes from.) Parr helped Henry get back in good w/ his daughters and vice versa. There was a lot of "they're illegitimate, they're legitimate" throughout the years, so I'm sure as a woman they felt either greatly hampered or greatly vindicated.

Henry really is the start of the United States. Henry made himself head of the church, because he wanted the divorced from Catherine of Aragon. It took years, but he was finally head of state and church, not just the former. He granted himself a divorce, in short order, and married as he wished. For centuries after church and state were ruled by one body. Taxes paid for everything for the monarch.

Eventually, it became too much, and through much cussin' and discussin', the folks on the Mayflower etc sailed to establish a new territory of sorts, away from such state-run religious oppression. That territory eventually became the United States of America. The irony of all that is that the right thinks the U.S. was founded on Godly principles, when in fact people just wanted the freedom to worship as they wished, or as they wished not to. It was freedom of and from religion. It's why that is in the first amendment with speech and assembly. Conservatives seem to think church and state belong together, but they don't. History has truly taught the church nothing, and it's all repeating itself over and over again. It's why abortion, LGBTQ rights, etc, are always up for grabs. The church is way too involved in the state's affairs.

As far as The Tudors, etc., most of the are stylized, but the basic story is there. The Tudors specifically fast forwards through a lot of stuff for the sake of time. Henry was quite the robust man until his leg injury where he put on weight. He wasn't always fat. The two Elizabeth movies are good, too. I think I've seen The Other Boleyn Girl, but I forget off hand.

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Reply #2 posted 06/13/17 10:30am

morningsong

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TrivialPursuit said:

Your history teacher should be shot. LOL He didn't behead all of his wives. It was actually a cycle through the six. Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, died. He did not behead them because they couldn't give him a son, although he did feel it a betrayal. (What small minds.)

Catherine of Aragon was finally divorced when Henry overturned the Catholic church in favor of a Protestant church (which is why a Protestant wedding or church looks Catholic on TV - like Diana & Charles' wedding, but it's really not - it's a lot of left over iconography, etc). The reformation rang for years throughout England and beyond. Monasteries etc were destroyed, their gold looted, their statues and homes burned or otherwise desecrated. All at Henry's order. Those who didn't rebuke their Catholic past and reform were often run out of town (commoners) or beheaded or otherwise ended (his court, etc). Henry was spoiled & wanted what he wanted right now. He executed Anne Boleyn, and Jane Seymour died. He divorced Anne of Cleaves. He found her ...unappealing. He executed Catherine Howard, and his last wife Catharine Parr died.

Henry was on the outs with his two daughters, Mary and Elizabeth - one being quite Catholic, and the other being quite Protestant, respectively. Mary was so hateful, she had Protestants executed. (It's where the term Bloody Mary comes from.) Parr helped Henry get back in good w/ his daughters and vice versa. There was a lot of "they're illegitimate, they're legitimate" throughout the years, so I'm sure as a woman they felt either greatly hampered or greatly vindicated.

Henry really is the start of the United States. Henry made himself head of the church, because he wanted the divorced from Catherine of Aragon. It took years, but he was finally head of state and church, not just the former. He granted himself a divorce, in short order, and married as he wished. For centuries after church and state were ruled by one body. Taxes paid for everything for the monarch.

Eventually, it became too much, and through much cussin' and discussin', the folks on the Mayflower etc sailed to establish a new territory of sorts, away from such state-run religious oppression. That territory eventually became the United States of America. The irony of all that is that the right thinks the U.S. was founded on Godly principles, when in fact people just wanted the freedom to worship as they wished, or as they wished not to. It was freedom of and from religion. It's why that is in the first amendment with speech and assembly. Conservatives seem to think church and state belong together, but they don't. History has truly taught the church nothing, and it's all repeating itself over and over again. It's why abortion, LGBTQ rights, etc, are always up for grabs. The church is way too involved in the state's affairs.

As far as The Tudors, etc., most of the are stylized, but the basic story is there. The Tudors specifically fast forwards through a lot of stuff for the sake of time. Henry was quite the robust man until his leg injury where he put on weight. He wasn't always fat. The two Elizabeth movies are good, too. I think I've seen The Other Boleyn Girl, but I forget off hand.



Seen tons on Elizabeth but never got all the connections and what all of it meant. Funny how it impacts on how we view things today.

“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #3 posted 06/17/17 11:10am

LBrent

morningsong said:

Okay, I'm re-watching it because I never finished it the first time, I was seriously losing track of all the Thomases. But now I'm also watching the White Princess (also finishing up the White Queen) and having fun tying the relationships together, even though these are fictional depiction of historical characters. But I'm wondering about "the curse" of (K)Catherine's mother (in WP) regarding the princes in the tower, is that historical? Would explain some of the erractic, or rather, desparate behavior of H-VIII. All I ever learned in history class about H-VIII was that he beheaded all his wives because they couldn't give him a son. I wasn't a history buff so I never read further into it. I'm a little peeved about that, but I see why we were left with only that impression of him.

I'm with you...

It wasn't until watching The Tudors when it first came out that I found out H8 was not a tubby turkey leg weilding ruler...He was actually an athelete and his court were the rock stars of their generation.

I also had an epipkany when realizing that Catherine of Aragon's mother was the queen who financially sponsored Christopher Columbus.

They never taught us that connection in school...the parallel timelines in the seperate countries and how they all ran side by side...History was boring and taught as though the events were all seperate, but the show shows how everything was going on at the same time...Hard for a kid to make the conclusion when they don't teach it that way.

Just think, H8 changed the religion of an entire country simply for p*ssy...Hmmmmmmm

lol

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Reply #4 posted 06/19/17 9:37pm

morningsong

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LBrent said:



morningsong said:


Okay, I'm re-watching it because I never finished it the first time, I was seriously losing track of all the Thomases. But now I'm also watching the White Princess (also finishing up the White Queen) and having fun tying the relationships together, even though these are fictional depiction of historical characters. But I'm wondering about "the curse" of (K)Catherine's mother (in WP) regarding the princes in the tower, is that historical? Would explain some of the erractic, or rather, desparate behavior of H-VIII. All I ever learned in history class about H-VIII was that he beheaded all his wives because they couldn't give him a son. I wasn't a history buff so I never read further into it. I'm a little peeved about that, but I see why we were left with only that impression of him.



I'm with you...



It wasn't until watching The Tudors when it first came out that I found out H8 was not a tubby turkey leg weilding ruler...He was actually an athelete and his court were the rock stars of their generation.



I also had an epipkany when realizing that Catherine of Aragon's mother was the queen who financially sponsored Christopher Columbus.



They never taught us that connection in school...the parallel timelines in the seperate countries and how they all ran side by side...History was boring and taught as though the events were all seperate, but the show shows how everything was going on at the same time...Hard for a kid to make the conclusion when they don't teach it that way.



Just think, H8 changed the religion of an entire country simply for p*ssy...Hmmmmm



lol



I'm tripping on how the show Reign ties in. She's the mother of King James. And the battles that were raging over these couple of generations. Giving us some learnin'.
“Do I dare Disturb the universe?”
― T.S. Eliot

“Only by acceptance of the past, can you alter it”
― T.S. Eliot
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Reply #5 posted 06/19/17 9:59pm

UncleJam

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Which is why I never understood why the Tudor's totally re-wrote the Margaret Tudor (Henry's sister) story. She married James IV of Scotland and gave birth to James V, who was Mary Queen of Scots' father. I know it was historical fiction, but that's a huge piece of the history to re-write!

Make it so, Number One...
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Reply #6 posted 06/20/17 9:31am

LBrent

What really has me go eek is when you get the bottom line on wars that essentially started as "family arguments"...This cousin not wanting to marry someone's daughter...and the royal family that insults another royal family...but they're all interelated and family.

So crazy.

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